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Autiumn offensive: Was it?

Started by Bolt-01, 07 January, 2004, 03:00:30 PM

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Generally Contrary

I actually enjoyed the Dredd story, and I didn't have a problem with the Dredd chin.  I did have a problem with the unfinished look to the art.  Now, 'incomplete' art can look dynamic, drawing the reader's attention to the action etc., but if it achieves that effect it is 'finished'.  Meatmongers art didn't quite get there, but I certainly didn't mind it.  One of the reasons I am such a big fan of 2000AD is the willingness of the editors to take risks on both art and writing styles.  Without this it'd all be bland 'John Byrne', instead we get O'Neill, Hinkelton, fully painted Bisley, Harrison etc.

And I enjoyed the Meatmonger story - more so than much of the Autumn Offensive.  

paulvonscott

Well, there are two problems with the art, which may or may not bother people.

1.  The chin.  I imagine people who are more into Judge Dredd get more annoyed about this than casual readers.  Would Caballistics fans be happy if one of the characters was drawn as a parody in the next series?  Would Watchmen have been better if for one episode Dr Manhatten was green for no obvious reason?  Whatever the rights or wrongs of silly chins, anything which distracts the reader from the story is not a good idea.  Doing things to purposefully annoy those freaks who read Judge Dredd is not a good idea.  Basically whether you liked the chin or not, some people didn't and it impacted negatiovely on the strip for them.  Whereas having a pointy chin, probably didn't improve the strip for many people, beyond having a chuckle.  

2.  The Art.  Apart from looking rushed or unfinished, which as you say can be an artisitc choice as much as anything I guess.  People had problems with the actual storytelling and working out what was going on.

On both points artistic flourishes should come second to the demands of producing a decent strip.

At the end of the day I thought Meatmonger was an OK strip which could have been really good, with the same two people on board.  As I said previously (in one of my incoherant outbursts no doubt) I'd even welcome the same two people doing another Dredd story.  Meatmonger was an okay story, it worked on some levels, didn't on others.  It certainly wasn't a disaster.

What I'm interested in is whether Siku will do any more Dredd and if so will he draw Dredd as an even more grotesque character in answer to the criticism, or will he put out a Dredd that most fans can enjoy?

The Monarch

I personally thought meatmonger was okay the art wasn't all that good but the story was okay.

I liked Dead men walking not exactly the best strip ever but it passes.

Durham red: why wasn't it put to pasture long ago it just feels like a part of the rubbish that spewed out of the final solution storyline (y'know that one where johnny got blinded and killed)

Cabalistics inc: truly genius it is a truly great strip which works even better after reading the krystalnacht story in prog 2004.

Synnamon: i believe i was a bit unfair with this story...i think i overacted...but it still doesn't hide the fact that i really didn't like this story i hope whatever the creative team behind this and that other strip have planned next will be better than this.

telguuth: err never read them so cannot comment.

Queen Firey-Bou

agree with PVS on the chin issue.

Logan on the offensice issue.

watcher on the assumptions issue.

Autumn wasnt too bad just miss timed.

yeah cabbalistics is really good but i find it bizarre that theres a general pant-wetting excitment about this & vomiting about everything else.

synammon will become a strip that in a couple of years i can't remember, tho its wasnt too bad.

DMW, was fine, art work great.

Durham was fine, tho these chapters n books break things up un-naturally.

The Thrills were still there tho, roll on 2004

Proudhuff

Jings, chill...

For me the 'big-girl' ringbash was a bit of an anti-climax, not much in the world of comic was challenged by it, the stories were fine, nothing to make one stop and think but we've suffered a lot worse before.
The artwork over all was good, The only problem I had with the Dredd stuff was that it didn't 'flow' smoothly, maybe that's a credit to other artists who carry Dredd onward rather than a real slight to the big S.  

On Siku, best of luck to him, you'll fine that most critics, with the notable exception of Logan, don't really have a lot of knowledge of how various artist have 'played' with Dredd's iconic image in the past, we suffered some s**t in the 80s I can tell you.  

I can imagine Siku not minding meeting Logan, they are both growed ups, but I can see why he would feel like life was a bit bigger that the chinwagglers/navelgazers/spleenventers who get upset aboot these basically petty items.


Huffy B



DDT did a job on me

Mikey

"So Logan's 'Oi Siku, it's a fucking eagle' comment was backed up with an in-depth criticism of eagles was it? Or the rest of the people who made a criticism of Siku's artwork were incoherent hatemongers were they?"
"Why don't you go back and read those comments before making lame assumptions like this."


PVS-I'm not making a lame assumption,I have read the posts.But I'm perhaps calling to mind Logans long standing,erm,debate about his 'relationship' with Siku.I read the stuff and I get an impression which sticks;a lot of peeps seemed to just wade in with same old comments.

M,who just might keep his opinions to himself in the future.
To tell the truth, you can all get screwed.

Oddboy

Nah, best to get em out in the open Mikey.

Some of Logan's critique was backed with reason, some wasn't - the same goes for other posters.
There is little point backing up every comment with reasons, as often the reasons have been stated already(either by the poster him/herself, or by others).

Also - if someone gives no reason/backup to their opinons, it doesn't invalidate them. On this board we're fans/customers - NOT reviewers.
Better set your phaser to stun.

Oddboy

Meanwhile...

Meatmonger Dredd - I thought (overall) it sucked. The art was sloppy & badly laid out - double page spreads especially so. The story was weak - should have been shorter - and the cameo aliens seemed cheaply used.  I did like the first 2 episodes, & most of the last one, but the middle I quite disliked.
The Inside Job was great fun though, & I liked the In Club.

DMW had great art, and while I didn't much like the story to start with, it grew on me a lot & I was really enjoying it by the end.

Exact opposite with Synnamon - liked episode 1 & went downhill from there.  The idea was done better in the Rose O'Rion series.  Nice art though.

Durham Red - I liked this, good art, good story (so far). I can understand why others might not like it though.

Cab Inc - just great.

Not rubbish as offensives go, but much weaker then previous offensives in the last couple of years.
Better set your phaser to stun.

paulvonscott

"M,who just might keep his opinions to himself in the future."

Say what you want, but there are basically a handful of people here who have made sweeping assumptions about the people who post comments on this board.  

You are wrong in my opinion and sidesweeping a whole bunch of people (except for some reason Logan) by calling them incoherant, petty, hatemongers, idle chatterers, navelgazers, bileous and all the other things that have been said on this thread is just a fucking insult, not making a point.  This pisses me off more than any stupid chin.  Do you understand?

Tanky

Hey all. jus thought after babbling on about nowt for a couple months, i'd actually post something comic related....

I always used to be a big fan of Siku. Some of the stuff he did a few years ago when i first started reading was drop dead gorgeous and very distinctive. But i'd have to agree with most of you (without the HATE!) that Meatmonger was a bit off and not up to the standard that i remember. (At this point i should own up to the fact that i rarely remember who drew/wrote what, which is why i haven't posted on artwork threads!) Meatmonger just looked...a bit odd. Not in a good way.

I totally loved DMW. Yummy art, just 'cartoony' enough for this irregular's tastes. Good characters too, not classics but refreshing.

Synnamon - yuck. Read two episodes. skipped the rest

I always love Durham Red, she's just one of my faves and can do no wrong. I'm a bit worried about the appearance of Johnny Alpha as (please don't shoot me!) I've never really got into him as a character.

That's about all i have an opinion on. By the way, Oddboy, nice letter this week!

Yours, eagerly awaiting the return of Nikolai Dante,
xTGx

Oddboy

By the way, Oddboy, nice letter this week!

Really? GO ME!

What prize do I get? The postcards? That's what I was after...can't remember what I wrote now, so don't say - I'll read it again from the prog.


One dead chuffed Odd boy.
Better set your phaser to stun.

stront692

"Was the autumn offensive that bad?"

no it was far, far worse - the offensives are supposed to be a 'jump on' point for new readers, they have become more adveturous but this one just seemed...

well a little bit desperate really, it smacked of filler material and rebellion must have been affected in some way otherwise there wouldnt have been the rumour at dreddcon that they werent going to do another 'offensive'

i didnt enjoy durham reds script (and she has little to do with the original character, i think dan abnett may be taking the p*** a bit using an established character to launch an otherwise unconnected story)

i didnt enjoy dead men walking and i skipped psynammon as the story didnt make me care about her very much, it was just one thing after another

the dredd strip also got weaker and turned into filler towards the end (this is the offending 'meatmonger' siku story, which aside from siku's unique take was also obviously rushed and i dont like the chin - i dont like it)

basically this is the problem with offensives while u can pick up new readers or tempt back irregulars, u are taking the mick out of your hardcore subscribers who are your bread and butter

if u dont like all the stories and then they get worse u may as well stop reading but if u are a subscriber u cant, this means that the autumn offensive became an exercise in fleecing subscribers and i am considering cancelling my subs

thats how bad it was


stront692

i did actually defend sikus art and the only problem i had with it was the 'chin'

the thread in question was indeed a joke and i took it as such in my reply, i was going to carry it on but some people didnt seem to get it and then the tone meandered

i could see what he was trying to do with movie style cut scenes into the page and a rough movie board feel - but u could tell it was rushed and unfinished

stront692

the other important point is that not everyone is using the swear words from 'dead men walking'

some people do seem to have liked the story but that also does not mean they can speak for everyone

i thought the idea of anthology titles was so that u could appeal to a broader readership, not fill all 32 pages with filler material

if u thought the messageboards were bad about the autumn offensive u should read the chat logs

sneck!!!

W. R. Logan

>I can imagine Siku not minding meeting Logan, they are both growed ups, but I can see why he would feel like life was a bit bigger that the chinwagglers/navelgazers/spleenventers who get upset aboot these basically petty items.

Sat next to http://www.2000adonline.com/index.php3?zone=droid&page=profiles&choice=SIKU>Siku at the 2000AD 25th Birthday bash at the Ministry of Sound and a very nice chap he was.
I try not to have a go at any person but if I don?t like a story whether it?s due to script or art I say why. I don?t like Siku?s artwork, never have and in my opinion its got worse and whilst I?d happily not see another Siku Dredd story, I?d have no problem having a drink with him, as long as we could find something else to talk about 8-)


La Placa Rifa,
http://www.2000ad.nu/classof79/>W. R. Logan.

http://www.glasseye.f9.co.uk/snapshot/2000addo/image/2000titles.jpg>