just cos i can

[Valhalla]

Shops do need custom -True

People need to shop - maybe... If you wanted you could be truly self sufficient. You could also choose to shop in business where policies vary.

I fail to see how this measure is extreme. It is very unobtrusive. And from a business point of view it is very cost effective deterrant.

If anything this is a much more pc/friendly method than the old roaming security guards. Under the bag-check policy evryone gets checked instead of just the people a guard doesnt like such as blacks, youths with big coats and long hair (me about 8 years ago)

Yes australia does well from the tourist dollar however the domestic market is far greater. Also when in Rome...

I'll try and compare this policy to a non life threating policy....

1) When I was in Auckland a beagle sniffed me. I was searching for food stuff that could have been brought through customs illegaly. This is to protect the environment and industry.

As for the geek comment. It annoys me when people belittle kids who are just doing their job. Had it happen to often to my staff.

I am just wondering what you mean about not complying with the policy. Does it mean you won't shop in a store with the policy or that you will refuse to display your bag. If it's the later I'd advise you that the law is on the side of the retailers here and they are quite within their right to arrest you.

Finally to sum up:-

I understand that theft doesn't usually hurt people (although i know several people who have been held up) however it does cost jobs. A small inconvenience on everyones part protects jobs.

Righto it's 6am here I'm off to bed. Thanks for the debate it's been interesting

Val  

[rc]

This is skirting around the point.

To surrender so much [i.e. the right NOT to be automatically accused of the crime of theft when one enters a shop to purchase items essential to one's existence] when going out for a loaf of bread creates a distrustful, cold atmosphere in the shop, the community and even the country from an outsider's point of view.

"Kids just doing their job" is fair enough, but employers should select those who at least have a spark of life in them instead of the grunting little dorks I've come across.

Minimum wage gets minimum effort!!

[Quirkafleeg]

Don't you Aussie's put electronic tags on items with a sensor at the door? Monitor the inside of your shops with cctv?

[Floyd-the-k]

say hello to Melbourne for me, Tank girrl, that`s my hometown.

cheers,

Floyd

[VampiraJen]

tank grrl, you lucky little bitch, i am sooooo jealous.  I'd love to see new zealand, though the poor kiwi's must be getting sick of tourists search for that spot where aragorn fought some uruk-hai's...

[Valhalla]

Hi gary and RC I'm back again.

Yes we have the electronic tags here that operate with gates at the front of the store however there are a number of problems with them....

1) Not everything can be tagged due to the size of shape of the items. Eg. One of the most stolen items is cosmetics It is very hard hard to tag a lipstick with a tag the size of a 50p piece. These tags also have to remain flat of they cease operating

2) They are a tag! If you want to steal an item....just remove the tag. they don't really blend in to the packaging.

3) They are not very cost effective. If we where to tag every item in the store we would soon spend more than we lose.

I'm sorry that these policies create a distrustful, cold atmosphere in the shop, the community and even the country but people have right to protect their property.

It has been proven that these policies work.

It is terrible that it has come to this but don't blame the retailer. After all they wouldn't have these policies unless there was cause for them.


val.  

[Dudley]

Don't you find it vaguely scary that theft is such a problem in your country?  After all, you're talking about a law that doesn't seem to be needed in, ooooh, Albania, Colombia, Nigeria...

[Valhalla]

Yes I does anger me that theft is so rank here.

However it's is one of the lower social ills we could experience. We don't have child labour, haven't had a recent case of ethnic cleansing ( This did happen up until the 1950's but that is for another time) and we don't shoot footballers for own goals.

I wonder how our theft levels compare to other countries. I think they are similar to the USA and they also use similar loss prevention policies.

Maybe theft is so high becaus eour laws are to lax! What the crime rate in Singapore and Saudi Arabia?

Val.

[SmallBlueThing]

Re: shopping in Australia.

This is just another in the very, very, long, looooong list of reasons why I shall never, ever, ever, visit that godforsaken country. And I can't believe people are defending just an anti-libertarian and anti-basic-human-rights policy.

Brrrr. Makes me shiver just to think about it.

"if you've nothing to hide, what's the problem?"

If ever there was a key phrase that signalled the world going to hell in a handbasket, that's it.

Steev

[Quirkafleeg]

Well they have tags in some books shops that are just slivers of metal... surly they can't be that expensive. Same with decent security guards, shop detectives etc

They have been talking about photographing everyone picking up Gillete razor blades (most shoplifted item in the uk) in one of the supermarkets but I think they have backed off from that

[Valhalla]

Hey! That's a bit rough calling Australia  a god-forsaken country on Australia Day!!

Could you tell me which countries you would visit that don't breach human rights?

The thing I eally love about libertarians is there ability to create a storm in a tea cup.

How can you honestly believe that it's a breach of basic human rights. You are totally over reacting!!

Check the Universal Declaration of Human Rights..... hmmm lots about the right to food, shelter and personal beliefs.
Nothing mentioned about how a person who chooses to enter a store (that is a private property), full knowing the stores has a bag check policy; is asked (not arbitrarily) to comply with said policy has had their Basic Human Rights breached.

Oh well I guess the UN f(^%ked up and forgot to add the shopping rights!

I am beginning to think we should let this discussion go as it seeming to be rapidly degenerating into sledging

Val  

Link: http://www.un.org/rights/50/decla.htm" target="_blank">Declaration of Human Rights.

[Slippery PD]

They have been talking about photographing everyone picking up Gillete razor blades (most shoplifted item in the uk) in one of the supermarkets but I think they have backed off from that

Well they are so fecking expensive.  Upwards of a fiver for 5.......

Having worked in a large shop some years ago its quite amazing at how many people try to shop lift and how many people get caught, Id imagine that something like half those are caught.  If your suspected in the UK by say a shop security guard can he detain you till the police arrive or can you just walk?  Im not sure, I certianly didnt see anyone walk when caught.

Its interesting to see the difference between cultures, but is suspect that western countries that are linked by language and common ancestory wont be that different......

Yer Slips

[rc]

In this case Val the storm may well be in a teacup for you, but it is also apt to reach out into other areas of everyday living where one must pass "tests" before obtaining goods and services one can afford.

If the "inspection/checking" policy is allowed to progress unchallenged so it becomes traditional law and taken for granted, it is indeed the beginning of the end for free living in a supposedly free and liberal country.

Obviously you are used to the policy and as a shopkeeper defend its benefits to your business, but from a visitor's point of view I would expect a little more trust from my elected government - and yes, even if this means people in the retail trade suffer slight losses from relying on good old fashioned CCTV & security tags.

Now the law is enforced in this way, there would of course be uproar from retailers should it be withdrawn.

There are always new ways to increase turnover and reduce losses in business, but at what cost ?

[Slippery PD]

but from a visitor's point of view I would expect a little more trust from my elected government

I find it an interesting concept that a law in a country may stop people visiting that country.  particularly one that is not so different from our own laws*.  

Places like, Singapore, Hong Kong, China, Korea, numerous South American, African and even middle Eastern countries seem to have a large number of visitors despite having very strict laws over a number of issues.  We'd visit these countries and respect them all the same.

Yer Slips

* - how do store detectives etc work in this country, if they spot you putting stuff in your pocket or bag that they suspect you may have stolen.  Do you just refuse and say Im not allowing you to search me and Im not waiting till the police arrive?  So what can they do?

 

[Dudley]

Article 29.

(2) In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall be subject only to such limitations as are determined by law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and respect for the rights and freedoms of others and of meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society.

Question: is someone not proven to be a shoplifter disrespecting your rights and freedoms?

Article 12.
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.

Shopkeepers being able to demand that people empty their bags = arbitrary interference with their privacy.


I could go on (e.g. right to presumption of innocence), but I have one main question.

Do Australian shops practicing this policy search every person's bag on the way out?  And if not, what's to prevent them targeting certain groups e.g. ethnic minorities for the hassle treatment?