just cos i can

[Tanky]

I HAVE A VISA, I HAVE A VISA!!!
just thought i'd share that
And i no longer work in retail, or for any other bugger!
Happy Australia day val and all other aussie boarders
Gonna get my ticket on friday!!

Very-excited-non-shoplifting Tanky

[Jared Katooie]

Hope you have a great time tanky!

Jared in on topic message shocker!

[rc]

Do Australian shops practicing this policy search every person's bag on the way out? And if not, what's to prevent them targeting certain groups e.g. ethnic minorities for the hassle treatment?

From my experience, it seems the aborigine race is most particularly singled out.

There seems to be a general opinion that black people are more likely to steal, and also that they are less willing to work.

This was conveyed to me from several sources, each one a white Australian.

Whether it is plain racism or the truth, I suppose the prosecution and unemployment figures are required.

[Valhalla]

Just when I'm out they pull me back in......

RC - CCTV and tags really don't work. I do understand your thin end of the wedge theory I just can't agree with it.
You see that my society could deteriote into a police state. I see that your ideal your deteriote into anarchy. You talk about human rights, but what of the property owners rights?
Tell me do you lock your car after you park. Surely you don't suspect that "everyone" will try to steal it? No. Surely that doesn't lead to a cold distrustful society? No. Just careful precautions.
Could you tell me what sort of security measures you find unoffensive? Are undercover security officers worse? I believe so as they bring with them there own prejudgices. The bag check policy does not descriminate.
Business could endure a slight loss. But this is not a slight loss. It is billions of dollars across the country. We nearly had a store close down in our region as the amount of theft had affected the cost of doing business so badly. That store employes 200 people. This isn't about shareholder value it's about peoples liveliehoods.

Gary - I know the book tags you speak of (i used to manage a Borders). From memory I think they where about 11 cents each. the tags we currently use are about 20 cents. clothing tags are about $3 and dvd/cd safers are about $5. 11 cents doesn't sound much but it is potentaily 1-2% of your profit. Around the same cost as a lost of theft! Also as i've said they have limitations to where you can put them.
However when I left the company a lot of publishers where starting to build the tag into the book. You actually had to destroy the book to get the tag out. At the moment a lot of name clothing labels  (levis nike etc) are also starting this. If this where to become the norm it would certainly limit the need for other security measures.

Slipo - In Australia any person can place any other person under arrest if they believe a crime has been committed, or is about to be committed. They are legally allowed to detain suspected crime whilst using "reasonable force".
If stopped here could you just walk away? Maybe. However if you did you could be charged with resisting arrest. If you interfered with someone trying to place you under arrest you could be charged with assault. However placing someone under flase arrest carrys very heavy fines $20k.
I would never ask a non security staff member to do this. And I myself would be hesitant to do this as no amount of store property is worth getting stabbed by some crazy junkie.

Dudley - The key word here is arbitrary. People are not checked randomly. Not all stores have a bag check policy. Usually only the very large  ones. And then everyone is checked when they leave the store including employees. There is no discrimination here. Last year we lost 470k of stock and there is only 2 ways to get it out through the employee entrance and through the front door.

Tanky - Welcome to penal colony OZ. come forth and be chipped! Seriously I hope you enjoy your stay, if you need help arranging things here gimme a yell.


val.

 
 

[rc]

Of course the property owner has rights to protect his interests - but like I pointed out earlier the shopkeeper NEEDS the CUSTOMER to survive. They should therefore respect them more.

The customer may have a choice of shops if he does not like the "checking" policy, though for convenience and as you say acceptance of it will probably just tow the line and be "checked".

Security as I have always known it in such situations is a required skill when one must vigilantly protect one's property - therefore using CAREFUL, DISCREET OBSERVATION and ELECTRONIC DEVICES is the way to do it; not accusing everyone by default and offending the law-abiding non-thief.

I maintain this is a liberty taken by the shopkeeper, but I understand how you yourself support it in your location.

I lock my car at night in case someone sees it and tries to steal it - I don't "check" everyone who comes into it's vicinity.

[Slippery PD]

Val I wasnt talking about Oz. I was in fact talking about the UK.  We have undercover security guards in our stores, they detain and stop theives, I presume because they see something suspicious.  

The people who complain here may be doing something suspicious and arent stealing in a shop.  In this country they could still be detained by the shop until the police come or empty their bag.  Personally I dont really see the difference, if someone from a shop security team asked me about something Id probably comply (and complain).  Is this any different than just stopping anyone

I asked a member of a security team how he chose people and he said they acted suspiciously, basically he went on gut instinct and was correct 9 times out of 10....  anyone could be that 1 in 10.

Yer Slips

[SmallBlueThing]

>"Hey! That's a bit rough calling Australia a god->forsaken country on Australia Day!!

>Could you tell me which countries you would >visit that don't breach human rights?"

"Australia Day" or not, I stand by my opinion- which is based on my experience of Australian culture through movies and TV, books, people I have met, people who have been there and told me of it, the existence of f-f-f-fecking huge killer spiders that live in peoples houses, the horrible, horrible, horrible climate and the white people's historical treatment of the indigenous peoples.

And the fact that mostly every single annoying fuckwit I've ever met has expressed a wish "to go to Australia". Go on then! Don't let me stop you!

Note: Anyone here who wishes to go isn't included in that fuckwit list. It's not a syllogism: 'Everyone who wants to go to Aus is a fuckwit, etc'.

As for visiting countries that don't breach human rights... that wasn't my point. I merely said it's another in the long list of reasons I'd never go. For the record, I'm thinly travelled, having been to the UK, Sweden, France, Canada, Holland and Ireland. I have no great wish to travel- no matter how far away you go, you are always the same person when you get there and the things we try to escape are inescapable unless we go to the place that, no matter how many times you visit lastminute.com, you'll never find a ticket for: your own past.

And I absolutely HATE the sun.

Steev

[stront692]

im gonna do hte entire formula 1 circuit, i have come up with an ingenius idea whereby i can pick pick and choose what work i do and where,

i tend to end up doing nights though cos of the fees im asking but means i can afford to have 1 weekend in threee and im gonna save them all for then

its gonna be great

[rc]

SpookytheCat:-

Having travelled around the place, you will never see one of the most beautiful, biologically diverse countries on the earth.

I've spoken to many people who dismiss travel with a sneer, but cannot think of any reason they should wish to do so other than jealousy of other people's motivation.

Australia has a great romance to the English in particular because it is so bloody far away for one, and it's not surprising many people talk of going there.

There are no huge killer spiders in houses.

There ARE hundreds of marvellous species to be observed in their natural habitat, many of which unique to the country.

Who is travelling to escape their own past? If you have something to run away from, I guess depending on who you are [and what you've done] it may follow you around... but most people go to experience the beauty and atmosphere of the country.

[SmallBlueThing]

RC-

"Having travelled around the place, you will never see one of the most beautiful, biologically diverse countries on the earth."

Maybe so, but I still don't ever want to go there. Nothing about Australia makes me want to do anything other than curl up and die. Well, that or lock my door, burn my passport and gaffatape myself to the floor in good old blighty.

"I've spoken to many people who dismiss travel with a sneer, but cannot think of any reason they should wish to do so other than jealousy of other people's motivation."

What? So because you can't think of any other reason than "jealousy" for them not wanting to travel, they must be jealous? Pish. As I say, I have absolutely no wanderlust whatsoever. there are many enough varied and wonderful places around the UK that I haven't "experienced" to keep me occupied. And they are usually of a temperate climate. And no matter how far up a mountain in Wales I may hike, I'm still me when I get to the top, and bills still need to be paid.

"Australia has a great romance to the English in particular because it is so bloody far away for one, and it's not surprising many people talk of going there."

Actually, most of the people I was referring to are Irish. But the same rules apply I guess. But just because a lot of people want to go there, doesn't make it great, or right for me.  

"There are no huge killer spiders in houses."

Absolute bollocks. The place is crawling with them.

"There ARE hundreds of marvellous species to be observed in their natural habitat, many of which unique to the country."

By which you mean yet more huge killer spiders, loose in the wild. Joy.

"Who is travelling to escape their own past? If you have something to run away from, I guess depending on who you are [and what you've done] it may follow you around... but most people go to experience the beauty and atmosphere of the country."

Here we go again- justifying it because "most" people do it. Well, "most" people are idiots. "Most" people have eaten in McDonalds and gone to DisneyLand, or have bought a copy of Lord of the Rings. Or watch Eastenders. I don't enjoy travel. Wherever I go I am hugely dissappointed by what I find and I'd rather stay at home. The exceptions to this are Stockholm, Vancouver and certain bits of North London.

But I'm not going to argue about it. And after having watched some of 'I'm a Celebrity...' tonight, my desire to actually leave any planet that has Australia on it has increased tenfold.

Steev

[rc]

Do you ever watch nature documentaries, particularly about exotic beasts?

Not find that shit fascinating?

Experiencing them up close is awesome.

Then there are the animals and insects.

Hmmmm. Sounds like you do indeed base your knowledge of Australia on Neighbours, Crocodile Dundee and English gameshows.

Bit of a toss reason to publicly denounce the country, though.

[Steamboy]

man I missed this one, what with me having a lazzee old day off for Australia day(I think I read somewhere Australia has more public holidays than any other country in the world).
Shop theft is epidemic in Australia, large retailer I used to work for has had such severe problems the last couple of years its been threatening to close. As a once spotty little geek I have been cursed at, spat on, swung at, called a racist white c*nt all because i was doing my job, not checking bags on the way out just stacking shelves and seeing if people need help, I'd like to say we realise 99% of people are honest law abiding citizens its just a shame that the majority must suffer due to this small percentage of scum causing havok.  Security tags are useless here alot of people aren't theiving out of need but out of contempt they'd rather wreck something trying to steal it than leave it.
Spooky from what i can tell from you're other posts you're a bit of a goth, no wonder u dont want to come down here all that sun u might end up with a healthy looking tan ;) spiders not that huge, at least not the deadly ones, hell I've even survived an encounter with our second most deadly(Red Back) and all that did was make me sick for a week(oh and turned half my brain to mush, not that anyone noticed).
oh well this probably makes no sense can't be arsed checking it, u know that classic Oz slaker attitude showing through...

CU Krestel(never go anywhere were a hot summer day is 25 degrees and rains 80% of the year)

[Valhalla]

Hi Spooky,

Well if ever there was a well thought out and beautifully composed arguement on why not to travel this was not it.

It seems you base your beliefs on media hype and other peoples travel stories. This is just moronic. Ever been to Scotland? I would never ever go there...I've seen Braveheart and Trainspotting and those sword weilding junkies scare the shit out of me.
As for your friends travel stories I'd advise taking things with a grain of salt. People tend to exagerate a little otherwise their stories might be well.... boring!

Still gcan't blame you for being scared of the big spiders. Most of the girls here are!
 
I'll grant you that the Aboriginals have in the past been treated disgracefully. However this was in the past. Do not blame a whole country for the sins of our forefathers.

One point to note:
Tasmania's aboriginal population was exterminated within a lifetime. It has been called'The world's most thorough and fastest executed genocide,'. It happened in the first third of the 1800s.  The indigenous tribe where massacred,the men murdered the women and children abducted and kept as toys and slaves. The government offered a bounty for captured Aboriginals, and in 1832 a gigantic battle was held right across the island employing several thousand men.

Who committed these atrocities? The British.  

The British also established the some of the worlds first concentration camps for thousands of women and children during the Boer War (1899-1902) in South Africa.

Let he who is free from sin cast the first stone!

Sorry Spooky but if you want to restrict your travel based on human rights don't step out your front door!

If you want to champion the rights of Aboriginals come to Australia and visit these people.
"For many Aboriginal people, tourism provides a connection to the land and the opportunity for their story, their knowledge and their culture to be shared and valued."
- Cathy Freeman (Olypic silver medalist Ambassador for Australian Aboriginal Tourism)

Don't want to travel because you won't find yourself? Of course you won't unless your name is Kerouac. What you might find is great people and new experiences.

I don't object to you not wanting to travel. Australia is probably better off for it. Our bigot quota is full.

Nope the thing I really object to is your public sledging of my home.

Valhalla.


Funny thing is as an Englishman living in Oz I've spent the last 20 years defending England from the same sort of mindless narrowminded stereotyping I've just received.

[Steamboy]

Go Val, all points I would of made were I able to articulate my thoughts into words aswell as everyone else seems to. When ever I try to make a point it just dont come out right.

CU Krestel

[Floyd-the-k]

a late addition to this thread...
  to reply to the original post; my big things for this year are study and planning a return to Australia (fingers crossed).
 To reply to the `Australia sucks` part of the thread, I thought Spooky was being tongue-in-cheek at first. Now, I`m not sure. Australia is brilliant. Some parts are more brilliant than others, depending on what you like. For Goths, Melbourne is a good place for avoiding sunshine (or you could just do a lot of clubbing in sunny Sydney after a bit of late-night shopping in Valhalla`s shop). People are friendly, the food is fantastic, the wine is terrific. Service is much friendlier than what I`ve experienced in London (where it`s hostile) or Japan (where it`s robotic).
 The politicians are appalling especially the PM who is of historic interest, being the worst PM Australia has ever had (Kr3estel`s told me I don`t have to spare his feelings anymore).
  The giant hairy spider problem is under control. Pretty much. These things take time, of course. I myself know many people who have all four limbs intact.
       Val is right about the indigenous population -  they were slaughtered and mistreated by British settlers and continued to be appallingly treated by white Australians into the 1970s. We`ve done our best since then and things have improved a lot. That last sentence sounds very defensive/seventies South African, doesn`t it? But it`s true. Our current government does rather play on fears of foreigners and does not like the idea of apologising to or recompensing the indigenous people.
  As for shoplifting, I didn`t think we did any more of it than the British did. I`m sick of references to the convict past though.
    I`d rather have store detectives and cctv cameras, not on civil liberties grounds but on the grounds that bag searches make shopping less fun. I don`t know if bag searches are legal or not; certainly being on private premises does not neccessarily override one`s legal rights and shop owners have been known to try it on with refund laws (ie putting up a "no refund" sign even when the law provides for a refund). But I don`t really know and I certainly don`t run a store.
 have a good time tank grrl! Spooky stay where you are, the spiders are on their way.

cheers,

Floyd