Golden Age

[Leigh S]

Hmmm, I can see your point, but take it from me, if you thought Helter Skelter was fun, then I'd urge you to seek out the originals (hopefully Titan will be bringing out stuff like Judge Cal and the Apocalypse War), as they are just soooo much more involving and clever and fast paced and tense.... basically, if you liked HS, you'd die over the originals.

[Oddboy]

Helter would have been a really good story if it had had new baddies from another dimension rather than old baddies from another dimension.  The 'elite' references where very insightful into the Judge System v Democracy issue.
Pagengirl: My advice to you is to seek out old progs - I've managed to get an almost complete back collection spanning all 25 years for under ?180 so it is possible.  That may sound a lot for a bunch of comics, but it worked out at 14p each which is cheap.  Look, Hunt, Don't give up!  Thrill Power is out there somewhere, you just have to find it!

[Pagangirl]

*****Helter Skelter was fun...seek out the originals*******

Actually in the graphic novel shelf, erm I mean section, of my library they have the complete apocalypse war and Dredd versus the Angel Gang which contains 2 Fink stories and a Dredd, Mean Machine team up.  

I found the Apocalypse war to be very dated, Russian Invasions?  Please that is sooo Chuck Norris, and I found the idea that a city can be nuked and still survive funny beyond belief.  The silly lisping robot and Dredds landlady stuff was childish.  The pre story build up, block mania was better with it's strangley topical story of contaminating the water supply of the city to bring it to it's knees.  I hope Ozy Bin Liner doesn't read 2000ad.  

It was a good example of a story that was great at it's time and fitted the then current fears, but being somewhat silly now.  I suspect it's status as a classic has more to do with nostalgia than it's inherent qualities.  Time has not been kind to it.

The Fink angel stuff on the other hand was fantastic, I'm thinking of getting it out then 'losing' it and simply paying the small token fee.

[zippy]

*** if you ever get the chance to read the 1983 Dredd annual, which has a great story that brings back Cal, Rico, Skank etc., with 1000x more characterisation, humour and plot in 16 pages than Helter Skelters 72. ***

I have to argee the Dredd story in 1983 was brilliant and realy got me into Judge Dredd.  Maybe for reprints they should reprint some of the Dredd stories from the Annuals and Specials.  Remember an execleent story in a Dredd Special about a boy nicking a rose from a garden.  They did a sequal in the comic but it was no where as good.

Also some one mentioned earlier about a large war being hinted at with Sino City, this was also heighted in the CORPS series but nothing ever happen. Maybe a conflict could occur with them but rather than a destroy the city then Dredd saves the day in the last eposode.  Maybe more of a cold war style conflict.

Some big thing was hinted about Mega City Two once in a special on a poster of the worlds Judges but nothing ever happened (apart from Dredd nuked it years later).  Think it was just an excuss not to have them in the picture as they look exactly like Mega City One Judges.

[Smiley]

>Think it was just an excuss not to have them in the picture as they look exactly like Mega City One Judges.

From the B/W art in the final episode of "The Cursed Earth", I thought the MC2 judges had the same looking uniforms but more pale. Maybe confederate's grey, with gold trim on the helmets. BTW, does this win me an Idiot Fanboy Award for Obscure Theories?  ;)

[Leigh S]

Sorry you didnt like THe Apocalypse War - its a little harsh to say that the concept of Soviet invasion is out of date - just wait a few years for the Sovs to get really pissed off with Capitalism and revert to an even nastier Communist state  :).

Chuck Norris it may be if you mean that it contains loads of flashy set pieces like the taking of Dan Tanna Junction, Dredds counter attack on the Sovs, Dredds confront of Griffin. IMO, these are more involving that spurious references to old stories - the Titan of Peem, bits of old dialogue - to me these seemed aimed at sad fanboys like me who understood the obscure references.

Sure its Chuck Norris gung ho stuff, but beautifully crafted, with the stakes building and the goalposts shifting with every episode.  You won't find a Wagner script (or even a Chuck Norris film!) where he drives a bike one way for half the film, then turns it around and goes back where he came from for the second.  It's also much more believable than the whole "We can isolate and take over the Grand Hall of Justice, and even when we crucify a load of Judges on the doorstep, no-one but Dredd will noptice - now that is Chuck Norris - one man succeeding where hundreds fail - and the dubious "fascisms OK so long as the fascists think they are doing it for the right reason and dont expect anything in return" line misses the point of Dredd by a wide mark - sure Dredd is a Hero in his own mind, and acts according to a strict moral code, which makes him a likeable and sympathetic character but the system he supports isn't likeable or sympathetic.  If your looking for outdated cliches and macho posturing read HS - The dredd of the Apocalypse War is a hero, a warmonger and a mass murderer all in one - not some simplistic "truth, Justice and the Mega City Way" stereotype

And Ezquerras art is sooo much better in the Apocalypse War than in the lazy "cut and paste previous panels" art he did for HS.  The fact he could get away with reusing the same panels ad-infinitum suggests just how samey the script was.

And I personally love the humour of Walter and Maria against the grimness of the War - that's the beauty of Wagner, he can do both humpour and horror simultaneously in the same script.  

[Leigh S]

I for one am glad that the war with Sino Cit never happened - the worst ever dredd story that ever saw print was the one where Dredd is drugged up and allowed to kill innocent cits by the Chief Judge as a way of toughening him up for the forthcoming war.....  All involved in that story should have their 'nads roasted for eternity.

The whole Sino-City war plot line was an editorial decision that had nothing to do with Wagner - thankfully, when the editors changed, the whole sorry idea was junked

[Pagangirl]

*******Sorry you didnt like THe Apocalypse War - its a little harsh to say that the concept of Soviet invasion is out of date ********

I guess we are from just two different eras.  Not that the apocalypse war is a turkey, just not an enduring classic, the annoying bits outweigh the good bits, and I conceded that it has some good set pieces.  Dredd's plan to assinate the brain washed Chief J is good.  But the stuff like the lisping robot and the whole sov thing.  If they had just invented a new enemy state instead of reusing an old earth war it could have worked.

Ironically as I have just read this, I find that what puts me off Apocalypse war is the same sort of stuff theat puts you off HS.  Not that it is an enduring classic by any means, just a fun story that demistifies some of the historical debris that has built up in the Dreddverse.  Would you rather they had dealt with it like Marvel and DC do?


**** just wait a few years for the Sovs to get really pissed off with Capitalism and revert to an even nastier Communist state :). ****

NEver happen, well they will get PO with capitalism as everyone else in the world bar the US have already, but they will never again pose a real threat.  It's when the middle east gets its act together and unifies that scares me, or Africa.  All they need is a martyr and the shrub seems determined to give them one too.  

It'll be the US that the sun sets on next, the world is changing!

[Oddboy]

...And the world has changed a lot by 2104: The Mega-Cities have very little to do with the current capitals, cities, towns, suburbs, villages set up we have both now & in 1982 when the story was running.  Nuclear war has already ravaged the entire planet leaving most of it 'Cursed Earth' like terrain.  The Mega-Cities bear no *real* resemblance to their current day counterparts, other than for satirical purposes.
The disharmony with the Sovblock was already showing in the Luna 1 stories, it made sense to use the Russians as America's enemy... I don't think they'll ever be beshtestbeshtestbuddies...

What was it I was trying to say?

O yes!  By 2104 Russia is a dead country, America is a dead country.  East Meg 1 & Mega-City 1 are both powerful (mega)cities, who don't get on well & certainly don't trust each other (cf. Luna 1 Mega-Olympics / Pirates of the Black Atlantic).

However, from a comics point of view:  you said it would have been better to make MC1s enemies from elsewhere & not Russia - read the Great Thrill Power Overload in the Meg where it talks about the early story Invasion!  A story about a Russion attack in the future (1999) changed at last minute to the 'Volgan' attack to make it more PC...  lame-o idea!  Took the gritty realityness of the story away.

[paulvonscott]

Sorry you didn't get it pagangirl but there has quite often been a loose affinity between what happens here, now and what happens in dredds world.

Apocalypse war came about while nuclear war between the states and soviets WAS very much in peoples minds.  This was the reagonite cold war era.

Also you may have noticed loose parrallels between Anti-Globalisation and De-Megification and the Anthrax scares in America and Sin City.

So it may looked dated to you now, but thats because it was written for then, not know, if you catch my drift.  A story that appeared like that now, would be anachronistic perhaps, but Apaocalypse war was very much of it's time and exciting stuff.

Heleter Skelter, was quite simply, shite of the highest order.  It may have given you a guided tour of the dredd characters (inaccurately portrayed) and been a bit of fun for some people, but believe me, the common consensus amongst long time readers is that it was pants.  

Having said that I'm sure it's the sort of story that may appeal to a new reader rather than an older one, and that in itself isn't a bad thing by any means.

Anyway if you are till reading dredd in a few years, read it again and let us know what you think.

[JimBob]

****************

 Hmmm. Got to disagree with you there.The Middle East has what thirty/forty years of oil reserves left? When thats gone whats the economy based on?
 I can happily read the Apocalypse war now and have no problem with the idea of a future Russian communist super power. The thing about history is it's so unpredictable. In 1900 who would have seen the potential of Japan? or a Europe where the traditional monarchies were all replaced by democracy? Who would think that the youth in the west as the most afulent generation in history would turn against capatalism which brought about that affulence?
 Every generation thinks the world won't change and they all end up wrong.
 I should never post wehen sober I end up sounding serious.

God Save the Queen

JimBob

[Smiley]

The European Union and Commonwealth Countries will be absorbed into a U.S. ruled hegemony, as the following happens..

1: Former Soviet nations will continue to fragment into warring feudal states, busily fighting amongst themselves until there's nothing left.

2: The economies of the oil producing Arab countries will eventually collapse, opening the way for ever more extreme religious fundamentalism directed against the West.

3: China's population becomes too large to govern, and it's peoples eventually revolt against the harsh social engineering measures introduced to cope.

Once the dust has settled after all this chaos, a new power will emerge in the East, uniting the warring factions into an unstoppable force. And when that finally happens, I suggest investing in a pot of Brylcreem and seeking gainful employment as a lorry driver. ;)

[Oddboy]

Russia could easily become a major power again!  Look at how easily Germany managed it after the Great War, when every country in the world was plotting to keep it downtrodden!  You can't predict these things.  Only TB Grover can do that.

[Art]

2: The economies of the oil producing Arab countries will eventually collapse, opening the way for ever more extreme religious fundamentalism directed against the West.

One could say that a lot of their current problems come from their abundance of resources, and that the eventually drying up of the oil wells could paradoxically lead to a renaissance in Islamic culture.

[stodge]

of course the impending collapse of the oil fields could force an union of islamic states into a very large and frightening fundamentalist coalition with rather a lot of disposable people ready to join allah with a bomb strapped to their chest and no qualms about the use of nuclear weapons (very likely cheap and extremely dirty).  how will the western world react to this?  will this free other nations such as china to carry out their own acts of state terrorism whilst the rest of the world is busy with this islamic threat?  those oil and mineral fields in the now poorly defended sibrian hills look tempting.  i can see a lot of very disturbing things happening within the next 20-30 years which will shift the world order considerably.....