Happy Zombie Jesus Weekend to you all!

[House of Usher]

"Mind you, I think the original question in that link is dumb anyway, because I don't regard doubt as a sin."

Sorry Robin - I didn't see that you'd already tackled that question. To which I would respond it doesn't really matter what you regard as a sin; what God thinks carries a lot more weight in these matters. I think God allows you to doubt. There are precedents in the Bible, not least Jesus on the cross, but also Thomas, Saint Paul, and others. But I think the deal is pretty much that you have to make up your mind before you die. You have to have faith, for without faith there is no salvation in Jesus Christ. Which brings me back to my previous point about having to make your mind up. Either God is real or he isn't.

You can either weigh up the evidence or the cost of not believing if God did turn out to be real. Choosing the latter is a bit of a shabby compromise. There is a third way, which is to believe in God because it's a nice story and you hope/wish that it were true. Nothing wrong with that, and it doesn't cost a lot even if God is just make believe.

There's no point saying, on your death bed, "I wish I hadn't wasted my time and effort believing in God" any more than there would be a point saying "I wish I hadn't wasted time and effort supporting Manchester United." If it makes you happy, go for it.

[Roger Godpleton]

I think religion threads should be banned from now on. If one appears, walk away.






Walk all the way back to your PAGAN DENS OF SIN YOU SCUM.


PS. This was a joke, don't worry, I'm a good atheist.

[Matt Timson]

We agnostics are where it's at...

[House of Usher]

+++DISCLAIMER+++ Theology lesson from an atheist follows. Theists and theologiand please feel free to correct errors.

Re: "Why create something then let it go to rack and ruin ? It defies logic."

Logic isn't God's strong point. Rules are.

"There is this idea that God is universal and can see and know everything all at once." - so far, so good.

"So he created earth and everything on it and then sits back and lets it all happen then judges everyone when they die." - yep, that's about the size of it.

"So what is the point ? Why create something then let it go to rack and ruin ?"

Well, the arguments around this one have developed over a couple of millennia. Firstly, the Old Testament version is that God made The Garden, and Adam and Eve. God said "there you go; that's all yours. You have dominion over all that. It's nice there, and it's full of things you can eat. Even animals. Take a bite out of that there llama if you don't believe me."

"if i was god then i would have made it a sin to abuse animals for example instead of saying that they are there to be abused."

That was never part of God's plan. Animals were originally put there for Man to make use of. I think it was St. Francis who codified the belief that God would like us to show compassion to animals because they too are God's creatures, but I think that's innovative thinking right there. I think the idea that Man has a duty of stewardship to God's creation is medieval in origin, but without reference to notes I made 12 years ago I can't be certain.

With the Age of Enlightenment you get the Positivist idea gaining ground that Man's duty is the perfection of Creation: God has provided us with the raw materials, and it's up to us to tame the wilderness and transform the Earth into a well-ordered and beautiful garden. Note how the meaning of Creation changes with developments in human philosophy and technology.

"So that means that we are all gods playthings and the only point in life is too be judged at the end of it? Why bother doing that ?"

Well, we're not so much God's playthings as His children. He created the universe for us to live and play around in. It was His gift to us. So was free will. But it's also a test. You have to use your free will the way he wants you to, and do the right thing, including worshipping God. Otherwise, you get the Big Stick. Forever.

"christianity saying it has the answer to life when it doesnt really ?"

Well, it does though, doesn't it? The answer to life is believe in God, be good, don't be naughty. None of this on Earth matters because it's impermanent; it's just a test to see if you're good and well behaved enough to get into Heaven when you die.

"AAaaah but then the universe is so big that we are insignificant and god is busying himself somewhere else." - no, God isn't busy elsewhere. He's looking down at the big mess we've made of things, tutting, and saying "I can't believe how badly behaved they all are! I told them what the rules were on at least three occasions millennia ago, and still they persist in doing what I told them not to do! Boy, are they ever in trouble when I come to judge them!"

"if i took his example by concentrating prely on the long term while neglecting the short term then by doing that i would fuck up the long term anyway so that doesnt add up." - God doesn't like to micro-manage. He set all the wheels in motion, then trusted us to look after things. I guess we just couldn't be trusted.

"My point is why go to the effort of creating something when you dont care what happens to it ?"

God doesn't care what happens to the world because, like life, it's just fleeting and impermanent. What's important to God is that we should learn something from being here. And what we should learn is to be good, and to have faith in Him. If you don't think God runs a very good training programme, that's because he's all-wise and all-knowing and we're not.


P.S. - Sorry Tweak, I didn't see you there.

P.P.S. - "This was a joke, don't worry, I'm a good atheist." - thank goodness for that! Bad atheists give us good atheists a bad name. They're the ones who fill their pockets with pick'n'mix when they think no-one's looking, and walk out of the shop without paying. That's not us, I swear!

[SamuelAWilkinson]

Is a bad atheist like a reverse lapsed believer, in that they keep going to church services and praying and the like by accident?

[House of Usher]

Well, that's harmless enough. I was afraid they might push old ladies in front of buses because they lack a social conscience and fear no divine retribution.

[Funt Solo]

Sorry, tweak.

</high horse>

[Robin Low]

Blimey.

There's simply too much to respond to specifically in a (semi-)coherent way, so I hope folks will forgive me for not attempting to do so. I might pick up on stuff later, but not right now.

Just for the record (and I've said this before), I'm not a Christian. I almost caught the bug in my teens, but I was so utterly embarrased by saying, "I've become a Christian" to my parents that I realised immediately it just wasn't for me.

However, I am fond of the whole Jesus story, regardless of its truth - I *like* the nativity scene as much as I like 'gaze into the fist of Dredd!' I also believe that Christianity has a useful role in the world - it's can provide genuine hope for the oppressed and abused.

Of course, it can and has been a system of control and abuse itself. However, I'm firmly of the belief that controllers and abusers will latch on to any belief or ideology and distort it to their needs and goals. It's the nature of controllers and abuses, not (necessaily) the belief or ideology.

I don't like fundamentalism, whether religious or scientitfic in nature. I'm a professional scientist. As it stands, nobody has come up with an experiement to test the existence of God, which is as much a failure on the part of science as it is religion. So, god remains an untested hypothesis, nothing more, but nothing less.

I'm scared of death, oblivion. A couple of times I've come close, in my head, to accepting completely that this life is all there is. It FUCKING terrified me. So, I'm not much motivated by faith, but by desperate hope, a need for meaning and purpose. I'm exceptionally jealous of those who can cope with the idea that their lives and those of their familes and friends are utterly worthless and pointless.

There's the philospical angle I've mentioned before. If this is all there is, just a cold uncaring universe, then right and wrong are a matter for society, of majority opinion. Sure, there's absolutely no need what so ever for a god to dicate and regulate all this, but somehow we keep electing people like Thatcher and Blair, when god would clearly prefer Ken Livingstone. Mind you, I think we're steadily becoming a kinder society even though religious belief is (supposedly) declining.

I don't got to church, sing hymns or associate with practising Christians, but York Minster is beautiful, I went to a carol service a few years ago and I think registary office weddings are miserable affairs.

Oh, yeah, and then there is the nasty streak in me that doesn't want the bastards of the world to get away with it. Especially the ones who use mobiles phones when driving or fail to signal on roundabouts. Crucifixions's too good for them.

So, believe or disbelieve: just don't take either view so seriously that others suffer (but feel free to annoy people on forums).

Regards

Robin

[Peter Wolf]

 York minster is beautiful .All the medievel cathederals and chirches are beautiful.


 The rituals and incense burning in the Catholic churches are beautriful but unfortunatly the organisation behind it isnt.And who wouldnt like to have a poke around in the Vatican library?


 I had an interesting dream once that i have never forgotten.In the dream is was hit by a train.One of those old steam trains that you used to get in the US with the pointed bit on the front of the train.I died instantly after being hit by the train and then instantly i was in an infinite void of nothingness.Just blackness that went on forever.So that was an insight of sorts into what nothingness is.woke up and thought that was interesting but i wasnt disturbed by it.

[Tanky]

I had a lovely long weekend, Tweak. There was chocolate and beer and unseasonal snow and a couple of nights off. How was yours?

Religion eh? I plan to come back as something fat, lazy and pampered and that's all there is to it.

[Robin Low]

"And who wouldnt like to have a poke around in the Vatican library?"

I'd say yes, but since I don't read Latin or ancient Hewbrew all I'd be able to do is sniff the books.

Regards

Robin

[Robin Low]

"I plan to come back as something fat, lazy and pampered and that's all there is to it."

Some of us have been you to it.

Reincarntion. Your actions in this life detemine what you are in the next. But you can't remember your previous lives, so there's no way of actually learning from your mistakes. How crap is that?

I suppose it is a social control system of sorts, but it's as effective as an asbo. No, 'behave or burn': that's the way to go if you want to put the metaphysical wind up people.

Regards

Robin

[Robin Low]

Sooner or later I'll have to figure out the edit function on this thing.

[Peter Wolf]

"Reincarntion. Your actions in this life detemine what you are in the next. But you can't remember your previous lives, so there's no way of actually learning from your mistakes. How crap is that?"

 Well exactly.


 I have my own beliefs about reincarnation which i wont go into .


 Also when i was younger i could look at someones face and be able to tell if they had lived before or if they were an old soul as it were.

 I know it sounds bizarre but thats what i thought.Its almost as if i could place them in another period or timescale.

 I find the idea of genetic memory quite interesting as well.

 I have or had all sorts of other ideas as well that very few others would entertain  or would indeed even ridicule.Not that i care because i dont really care what others think anyway yet at the same time its perfectly acceptable to base an entire belief system on a book.

 At least what i believe in has some relevance to myself but what happened 2000 years ago by the sea of Galilea doesnt.

 Funny old game innit ?


 I had forgotten about the latin aspect of the Vatican library.I dont even understand sloppy laymans latin let alone correct latin which is a minefield of correct interpretations.

[Adrian Bamforth]

I was very careless the other day: I backed my Karma over my dogma.