The new 'what do you look like?' thread

[Judo]

There's no such thing as 'fate' or 'destiny'.

It's just another fairy story to believe in like astrology, tarot cards, psychics, god, guardian angels and all that other codswallop designed to give comfort to the small minded.

Ah philosophy, what a sweet agony you are. Area - freewill.

This is hard for you to justify if you believe in science - the big bang theory, inductive principles... In fact the whole theory of laws of cause and effect! If every action has a reaction, our lives could just be one long series of causes and effects.

If you believe in christian religious principles (don't get me too going on this btw cos ill upset people with rational argument) then some kind of fate must exist. You cannot have an all knowing god and have free will - this is self contradictory.

The other solution to examine is that we are like a flowing river. Free, but only within the confines of our banks. Of course this explanation if wrought with problems as it attempts to reconcile 2 directly opposing ideas but hey, its the least depressing option x

[The Legendary Shark]

How long has Shark's avatar been moving like that?

It was destined to happen.

[Richmond Clements]

This is hard for you to justify if you believe in science

I don't know anyone who 'believes' in science...

[The Legendary Shark]

The only thing that science can prove is that maths works.
The only thing that belief can prove is that maths doesn't work.

It's no wonder we're all confused.

[DoomBot]

If you believe in christian religious principles (don't get me too going on this btw cos ill upset people with rational argument) then some kind of fate must exist. You cannot have an all knowing god and have free will - this is self contradictory.

Um. Err. The whole point of christianity is that god gave us free will to choose salvation through Jesus or reject it. It's one of the founding principles of the faith that you have free will to choose....

Not that I'm particularly bothered about defending Christianity but....

Anyway onto more important matters - Awesome avatar Sharky.

[TordelBack]

The whole point of christianity is that god gave us free will to choose salvation through Jesus or reject it. It's one of the founding principles of the faith that you have free will to choose...

Even so, Judo's right, it's a contradiction at least as old as Calvin (and not just the cute one): if God knows everything, the He must know what your all choices will be, and thus they are already made, i.e. your fate is inescapable.

[The Legendary Shark]

Thanks, Doomy - but it is kinda' creepy.

I think it was in my dreams last night, sharpening its teeth...

[M.I.K.]

This is hard for you to justify if you believe in science

I don't know anyone who 'believes' in science...

Depends on how you define it. Could be the process of obtaining knowledge through experimentation and testing, but could also refer to the knowledge thus obtained, (although the internet does tell me the latter definition is a bit archaic).

Um. Err. The whole point of christianity is that god gave us free will to choose salvation through Jesus or reject it. It's one of the founding principles of the faith that you have free will to choose....

...and if you reject it you usually go to Hell. What kind of rubbish bloomin' choice is that, eh? God can just about go and get stuffed if He thinks that's being reasonable. The numpty.

[The Legendary Shark]

Then there's the Many Worlds Theory where everything that can happen does happen. Every moment of our lives branches off into any of infinite possibilities - like will I even write this post? Will there be a spilling mistook in it? Which spooling mistske will I make? It's like you're driving a car on a road with infinite branches and turnings and you can choose whichever path you like so long as you stay on the road in this Hellishly complex one-way system. But at every branch or turning you split in two and follow both or all three or however many infinite possibilities there might be. That way you get to exercise free-will and be constrained by a sort of fate at the same time. At any one time there are infinite yous, all branching back in time to turning points when you become the same you, quite separate from the different  yous that are going to branch off from the you at this very moment. I guess this means that you are only you for this present moment, a moment ago you were another you and a moment from now you will be another you again.

Does anyone have an aspirin?

[DoomBot]

This is predestination Tordle. I understand the argument but you'll find plenty of counter arguments. It really isn't that simple.

Yes he is a numpty M.I.K. It's a rubbish choice. I'm not defending it.

It is creepy Sharky. Kind of morbidly fascinating though.

[Eric Plumrose]

The whole point of christianity is that god gave us free will to choose salvation through Jesus or reject it. It's one of the founding principles of the faith that you have free will to choose...

Even so, Judo's right, it's a contradiction at least as old as Calvin (and not just the cute one): if God knows everything, the He must know what your all choices will be, and thus they are already made, i.e. your fate is inescapable.

They were still your choices, though. Ones you were free to make, irrespective of God's foreknowledge.

[Eric Plumrose]

I guess this means that you are only you for this present moment

Quite. Free will exists, but only in the physical present. Jump forward in time and you've already made your decision. That decision was made in what is now your chronological past.

[TordelBack]

They were still your choices, though. Ones you were free to make, irrespective of God's foreknowledge.

Yes, but your fate , in the usual sense, is already established, and always has been.

This is predestination Tordle [...] It really isn't that simple.

I'm familiar with the theology, I just happen to find the logical extrapolation from the concept of omniscience convincing. 

But as you say, this is a thread for mocking each other's decrepitude, not considering the ineffable.

[The Legendary Shark]

My decrepitude is ineffable.

And why aren't you guys in the Yap Shop?

[Judo]

science is belief system as it requires you to believe things beyond your own empirical and rationality - a certain amount is taking other peoples word for things - this is an appeal to authority - this is a fallacy - fallacies are not valid argument forms. Of course the difference is that it is much easier to turn scientific beliefs into valid knowledge.

Yes, as I said, I not wish to upset anyone with rational arguments, but yes god cannot know the choices one makes AND not know. My favourite favourite example is from the bible itself. Jesus, starving, comes across a fig tree but alas, it is winter.  Despite knowing that it is not natures way for the fig tree to produce fruit during winter, in anger Jesus smites the fig tree so that it may never again bear fruit. That's just says it all dunnit

I'm sorry I end up yapping in any thread I join x