Wagner & Grant's Batman/Detective Comics

[radiator]

Hi,
Just wanted to get some opinions on John Wagner and Alan Grant's run on Batman.

ISTR that it's quite highly regarded - has it been collected anywhere in some sort of comprehensive way? Any standouts that are worth tracking down?

[bluemeanie]

Dont think its collected but its the Wagner/Grant/Breyfogle run on Detective that got me both into comics and Batman especially. Absolutely loved it.

Dont think you can get the Detective ones, just spin off mini's like Anarky and Robin.

Would absolutely love a nice trade of this run for the shelf though. Almost wish I'd kept my originals so I coulda got them bound or something

[Jim_Campbell]

Just wanted to get some opinions on John Wagner and Alan Grant's run on Batman.

To be fair, John only co-wrote about the first  four-and-a-half issues -- the rest is all Grant.

I liked the Grant/Breyfogle Detective run best. Batman was regarded as the 'flagship' Bat-title at the time, so DC seemed to largely let Grant get on with it. Once they moved to Batman, and then Shadow of The Bat, the team and the titles had a higher profile and were expected to play nice with DC continuity and crossover events and the like.

But, no, they haven't been collected. Grant says he's been told his work "doesn't fit" with the way DC sees itself today, and Breyfogle believe that he's been blacklisted by DC. In fact, Norm posted here a while back, so he might be able to correct that statement if I'm wrong...

Cheers!

Jim

[radiator]

Saw this recently...

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/comics/news/a251514/breyfogle-blacklisted-at-marvel-dc.html

[Colin YNWA]

Absolutely love the Alan Grant (briefly John Wagner) + Norm Breyfogle Detective, then Batman, then briefly Shadow of the Bat run its one of my favourites and I re-read it all a year or so ago and it really holds up. Its all good stuff but the Detective issues were they had a free hand are my favourites.

There's a good article about those here

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2010/07/20/comics-you-should-own-flashback-detective-583-594-601-614/

and a little more here

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2010/07/20/comics-you-should-own-flashback-detective-583-594-601-614/

As for Norm being blacklisted there's an interesting article about it from Bleeding Cool, made all the more intriguing if you read through the comments where Norm himself gives his take on matters. Well worth a read.

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2010/07/26/norm-breyfogle-believes-he-is-blacklisted-at-marvel-and-dc/

Of more importance while these haven't been collected they are relatively easy to pick up off eBay or the like for very little and I can't recommend them highly enough. My favourite Batman pre Morrison by a mile.

[Professor Bear]

I would go as far as to say that this was the last time Batman had a coherent and consistent creative team and direction to match.  I have a soft spot for Peter Milligan's short and seemingly forgotten stint with the character, but Grant and Breyfogle made even daft crossovers and leftfield editorial edicts like the return of the Joker work as part of the book, and even 20 years later DC are both eroding the contribution they made (by killing off the likes of Scarface - probably the only decent post Silver-Age villain in Batman's gallery of rogues - or turning Anarky from a socially-conscious saboteur whose political ideology stems from the anarchist belief in individual responsibility for actions as a social collective to a guy in a cloak who shouts at his TV), and also strip-mining it.  If you think it's odd that it hasn't been collected, take a look at the 2nd/3rd issue cliffhanger of the story 'Mud Pack' where Clayface [spoiler]pretends to be a resurrected Jason Todd to throw Batman off his game, only we don't know it's Clayface and the whole thing is played as if it is really Robin[/spoiler].  This was ripped off not once but three times in the last ten years, first as the only decent idea in the atrocious Hush, later as the basis of a series of comics by Judd Winick whose only purpose seems to be to show us a Batman so sad he might cry, and latterly as the basis of a terrible animated film where Batman talks about his sorrow with Alfred for ten straight minutes while Dougie Howser MD takes time off from killing Eye-rachnids to voice the gayest Nightwing that has ever graced creation - and if you've read a Nightwing comic in the last ten years, you understand that this is really saying something.
Do Grant and Breyfogle get credit for coming up with the Jason Todd shell game around which a great deal of Batman output has been based these last few years?  Do they fuck.

If you like Batman, you should read the Grant/Breyfogle run.  It was a little darker when Wagner was on board for introducing Scarface and that dissolving guy and the heart-eating chap, but Grant on a solo trip is no less entertaining.  They are damn good comics, and a reminder that Batman can be a great superhero title rather than just a book about a guy in shadows who acts like a cock.

[Emperor]

As for Norm being blacklisted there's an interesting article about it from Bleeding Cool, made all the more intriguing if you read through the comments where Norm himself gives his take on matters. Well worth a read.

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2010/07/26/norm-breyfogle-believes-he-is-blacklisted-at-marvel-and-dc/

This is a good interview for getting Grant/Breyfogle's point-of-view, with an inside view on all the petty politics and dickery that can go on:

http://ohdannyboy.blogspot.com/2007/01/batman-alan-grant-norm-breyfogle-speak.html

I think it is weird the way you can have a long and acclaimed run on a title, then the next day no one is returning your calls. See also my comments over on that BC thread about the parallels with Dave Taylor who was told he'd never work in the industry again but is now gearing up for a new Batman run.

[flip-r mk2]

Can't remember much about the run,apart from a 2parter with Cam Kennedy art.

filip

[Colin YNWA]

Can't remember much about the run,apart from a 2parter with Cam Kennedy art.

filip

Issues 477 and 478 are great. They are written by John Wagner on his todd as I recall just after the Alan Grant and Norm Breyfogle run finished in Batman and moved to 'Shadow of the Bat'. The thing I always remember about these is the weird model covers.

[flintlockjaw]

I think the artist on those was Cam Kennedy and it was a 'locked room with suspects Murder Mystery'

[maryanddavid]

I have couple of Ledgends of the Dark Knight somewhere by Wagner and Ezquerra. Shadow of the Bat was good too, enjoyed it at the time.

David

[starscape]

This is a good interview for getting Grant/Breyfogle's point-of-view, with an inside view on all the petty politics and dickery that can go on:

http://ohdannyboy.blogspot.com/2007/01/batman-alan-grant-norm-breyfogle-speak.html

"When DC asked noted English writer John Wagner"
And that's coming from a blog called Oh Danny Boy - virtually the national anthem of the Republic of England.

Having said that, great interview!  I was reading them at the time, also when they came out in Batman Monthly from London Editions.  To be quite honest, it wasn't quite dark enough for me.  Sorry Alan!  Doug Moench was the man.

[O Lucky Stevie!]

http://ohdannyboy.blogspot.com/2007/01/batman-alan-grant-norm-breyfogle-speak.html

"When DC asked noted English writer John Wagner"
And that's coming from a blog called Oh Danny Boy - virtually the national anthem of the Republic of England.[/quote]

Last time Stevie checked John Wagner writes in English, so what's the problem?

Oh Danny Boy is a fellow Aussie*, so count yourself luck that he didn't refer to John as being a Pom.

* a multi-cultural land which, unless you're a member of the Liberal Party, still prides itself in being inclusive of immigrants what with the bulk of the population having only arrived these last 2 centuries.

[O Lucky Stevie!]

http://ohdannyboy.blogspot.com/2007/01/batman-alan-grant-norm-breyfogle-speak.html

"When DC asked noted English writer John Wagner"
And that's coming from a blog called Oh Danny Boy - virtually the national anthem of the Republic of England.

Last time Stevie checked John Wagner writes in English, so what's the problem?

Oh Danny Boy is a fellow Aussie*, so count yourself luck that he didn't refer to John as being a Pom.

* a multi-cultural land which, unless you're a member of the Liberal Party or a constituent of a marginal seat in Queensland, still prides itself in being inclusive of immigrants what with the bulk of the population having only arrived these last 2 centuries.
[/quote]

[SmallBlueThing]

Checking back over the box of Batmans i gave my eldest a few years ago, i find it contains quite a few of these. Sadly, all are now 'well-read' (boarders with seven year old boys will know what i mean) and most are now missing covers. I asked him if he liked them and he said yes, and they were much more interesting than the 'hard ones' id later given him. Stifling my chortles, i asked him which they were, and he showed me Batman Legends 1-12, featuring Hush. I patted him on the head, uttered 'tha's m'boy', spike-style and gave him extra sweets.
DC, stop being twats and give us a trade.
SBT