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It's baaaaaack!

Very solid opening episode, I thought. It's astonishing how they keep ramping up the stakes, and how each season seems bigger and even more visually impressive than the last. It seems like they won't be doing anything else with [spoiler]Mance[/spoiler] and that's probably for the best - I can't imagine the switcheroo they pull in the books working on screen and it's yet another plotline they wouldn't really have time for.

They're obviously going to be doing a lot of consolidating and cutting to get the plots of books four and five down to something manageable, and I totally get that. For the most part it works, I think. They're obviously fast-forwarding Tyrion's plotline, which is a no-brainer. The teased prospect of him [spoiler]meeting up with Danaerys[/spoiler] really got my girlfriend (a far more casual viewer than me) interested so it makes sense to progress to that as soon as possible to keep up the momentum. I enjoyed books four and five more than most people seemed to, but they do feel like that episode of Itchy and Scratchy where they never make it to the fireworks factory.

A couple of minor quirks - did I imagine it or did [spoiler]Sansa and Littlefinger ride right past Pod and Brienne?[/spoiler] Because if so that's more than a little silly. And I wasn't entirely happy with the way they're playing Stannis and Melisandre so far. I[spoiler] hope they don't portray them as straight antagonists for Jon Snow, as the tension, then subsequent burgeoning mutual respect between Jon, Stannis and Mel really showed another side to them and made them really likeable figures for the first time - to the point where I was really rooting for Stannis for the first time in the series.[/spoiler]

Really looking forward to Theon's storyline this season, which for me was the standout of A Dance with Dragons. He's probably my favourite character in the whole series. During Dance it really dawned on me  - Theon is ASoIaF's Gollum/Smeagol isn't he?

QuoteTheon is ASoIaF's Gollum/Smeagol isn't he?

Hadn't thought of that, but yeah, good call.

QuoteHadn't thought of that, but yeah, good call.

I'm certain that it's deliberate. A lonely, displaced figure with a tragic backstory, the [spoiler]dual identity, the talking in gibberish/riddles, the treacherous nature, the diet of live animals, the tantalising (though probably doomed) prospect of some kind of redemption. Even his transformation into 'Reek' is far more dramatic, and his subsequent appearance much more Gollum-like in the books.[/spoiler]

While episode 2 was a slight wobble, last night's was cracking I thought - best of the season so far. Many, many great moments.

I fully understand why they're diverging so much from the books with the Bolton storyline, but the way they're incorporating Sansa doesn't quite work for me. It just doesn't make sense that Littlefinger would [spoiler]a)openly and brazenly defy the Lannisters - it's not his style and b) place Sansa in such obvious danger, and I just don't buy the rather flimsy narrative band-aid they're using - ie that he doesn't know the full truth about Ramsay[/spoiler].

A couple of predictos - I'm speculating on how they will adapt certain book plotlines here, so just avoid if you only watch the show:

Sansa is gonna go [spoiler]Stoneheart and turn Fat Walda into Frey Pie.[/spoiler]

In the absence of the [spoiler]Griffs, it'll be Jorah who has Greyscale[/spoiler].

Brienne will [spoiler]fulfill Mance's role at Winterfell[/spoiler].

They'll kill [spoiler]Balon Greyjoy[/spoiler] off-screen and just throw in a reference to it later on. Other than that, I can see them jettisoning the [spoiler]Greyjoy/Kingsmoot[/spoiler] plot entirely.

Could you relegate bookspoilers to the book thread dude.

I hope radiator is right on all counts.

The latest episode was enjoyable but the 'shock' wasn't really shocking anymore and sadly, the ending you could see coming a mile off.
Perhaps I have become immune to shocks, as you're always expecting one now!

Felt more like the heavy foreshadowing of these events in earlier episodes didn't really qualify their outcome as shocks but more a ramping up of inevitable events building to even greater horror.

I enjoyed the ending, feel this is making [spoiler]Stannis [/spoiler]look more and more of a chump though. Literally brought down by 20 blokes.

did anyone else expect to see yoda ride in on the back of drogon in the arena?  ;)

Even if both don't fit that neatly....

I was going to write something but this quote from the Guardian perfectly sums up my feelings, so I'll paste it here.

Such was the horror of Shireen's death that I found it pretty hard to concentrate on the rest of the episode. The true wonder of seeing Dany ride Drogon was perhaps a little undermined by the fact that even as one part of my mind was going, "Oh, wow, she's going to fly on the dragon [...]  the other part was still endlessly repeating the phrase, "Stannis just burned his daughter to death".

Despite foreshadowing Stannis' actions and the hopelessness that long-term viewers may have instilled in them, I was still profoundly shocked by this episode. But that's because I'm a Guardian-reading weed.

http://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/tvandradioblog/2015/jun/08/game-of-thrones-recap-season-five-episode-nine-the-dance-of-dragons (http://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/tvandradioblog/2015/jun/08/game-of-thrones-recap-season-five-episode-nine-the-dance-of-dragons)

As a reader of the books, I'm loving how the TV show is diverting so far from them.

I figured that since they killed off [spoiler]Ser Barristan[/spoiler] (possibly my favourite character in the books, after Tyrion obviously), that [spoiler]Ser Jorah(I flipping love Iain Glenn- total mancrush!)[/spoiler] would be taking up his slack. But I figured [spoiler]the dragon scene[/spoiler] to be towards the end of the next season... shows you what I know...

Quote from: Richmond Clements on 09 June, 2015, 05:23:23 PM
[spoiler]Ser Jorah(I flipping love Iain Glenn- total mancrush!)[/spoiler]

He's brilliant.
Did you ever see the short he starred in a few years ago, Vagabond Shoes?

Fuel that man-crush;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9pnQ_nbYRE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5IPvfgkuwY

But when he took Daenerys' hand did anyone else think: don't touch him!

I don't know how the [spoiler]greyscale infection[/spoiler] will play out but I'm desperate for him to be cured even if it means having his arm lopped off but I know better than that by now. My guess is he will give his life to save his one true love to redeem himself. In that light, I liked how even Daario Naharis respected Jorah's staggering, lovesick commitment to prove himself when he shut Hizdahr zo Loraq up before the fight.

Apparently that big 'shock' moment, rather than being a show invention, came from GRRM himself, which may leave book readers scratching their heads somewhat as it seems very at odds with how things were left at the end of the last book. I imagine something similar will play out in the next book, but I expect the context will be very different.

Interesting speculation/analysis over on io9 - book spoilers, obvs: http://io9.com/so-did-game-of-thrones-just-reveal-a-huge-book-spoiler-1710011764 (http://io9.com/so-did-game-of-thrones-just-reveal-a-huge-book-spoiler-1710011764)

At the end of the day, I'm still (kind of) rooting for [spoiler]Stannis. Though he has obviously just doomed himself and his whole crusade, what separates him from the likes of the Boltons and Freys is that he's at least trying to do the right thing and at least believes he is acting in the interest of the greater good. I'd say that one of the fairest criticisms of the TV adaptation is that Stannis has been rather poorly-served as a character - he comes across as very one-dimensional in the show (often as a smirking villain), and up until now has always seemed to get the short end of the stick, screentime-wise. I don't know how much that comes down to casting - I like the actor playing him but I don't know if he's quite right for the part. I remember Christopher Ecclestone's name being kicked around pre-season 2 and can't help but think just how much better he would have been in the role. Admittedly he's a very hard character to get a grip on - someone who's powerful and has a huge presence, while evidently not being remotely charismatic in the traditional sense. [/spoiler]

As for the spectacle at the end of the episode, I know they're working with a relatively limited budget, but I still think it suffered a lot in comparison to the astounding visuals they were able to achieve last week. It's also one of those things where it made me regret having read the books because it didn't live up to what I imagined in my head. The scenario on the page is broadly similar, but to my mind was much more visceral and the surrounding events were far less contrived and silly.

Are we spoiler-tagging things that have happened in the most recent episode?

[spoiler]While I liked a lot of it (the end sequence I thought was quite well done) it felt like no-one had thought about stuff too much. Why did none of the citizens of Meereen raise a finger to help Dany? No freed slave is happier with her in charge? Hell, why did none of them just defend themselves? And the Unsullied ought to be renamed the Unable To Fight Worth A Damn. 

Stannis' actions seemed absolutely insane too. Who's going to support him even if he wins? Why did they bother humanising him if this is all he's going to do?[/spoiler]

Hmmm.

I do feel like when people criticise GoT for plot/character inconsistencies, it's 99% of the time due to changes made from the books by the TV writers.

It's very curious, the Stannis thing - [spoiler]the last we hear in the books he is heading off to lay siege to Winterfell and instructs his followers that if he falls in battle, Shireen should be crowned Queen. She is the only legit Baratheon heir (and it's remarked upon time and again that Celsye cannot give him any more children). It begs the question; why would Stannis - a man shown to be obsessed with succession - cut off his own bloodline? It doesn't add up. I suspect that even if, as hinted, Shireen ends up on the bonfire in the books, it will be under very different circumstances.[/spoiler]

As for Dany, they have vastly simplified the whole thing to the point where frankly it's a little hard to swallow (bizarre lack of security measures etc). The Sons of the Harpy are a combination of several different factions in the books, and are far more flagrant in the TV show. [spoiler]There is an assassination attempt in the books - but it's a poisoning. Drogon doesn't come to save Dany - he is simply drawn by the blood and noise of the fighting pits. He starts to roast pit-fighters and civilians, and Hizdar (who may or may not be behind the poisoning attempt) orders Drogon to be killed. It's then that Dany bounds into the stadium to rescue him. But even then she has to tame him using a whip she grabs from one of the fighter's bodies.[/spoiler] It's way cooler.

I think part of the problem with the adaptation is that they have a tendency to make the 'good guys' more traditionally heroic and smooth off any rough edges - especially with Dany and Tyrion (who can be a nasty little bugger in the books), and it doesn't always work.

In defence of the Unsullied, you could infer/argue that they are excellent field soldiers, used to fighting in tight formation on the battlefield. Fighting against guerilla insurgents in a city is not what they were trained for.

You lot are worse than me :lol:

I would say that their weapon is not suited to multiple assailants in close quarter combat!

QuoteI would say that their weapon is not suited to multiple assailants in close quarter combat!

Yep. They can own Dothraki though!

Quote from: COMMANDO FORCES on 11 June, 2015, 07:14:45 PM
You lot are worse than me :lol:

I would say that their weapon is not suited to multiple assailants in close quarter combat!

I'd buy that, if we'd not had an example of their weapon of choice being unsuitable for purpose just a few weeks ago. Why has no-one gone "maybe we ought to train, or at the very least equip ourselves, with weapons better suited to our environment?"

So...

[spoiler]Burning a child - probably the grimmest 'dead child' scene so far in the series.  I felt distinctly uncomfortable watching it. 

The dragon and Daenaerys - looked a bit cheesy b-movie, and definitely not as cool as the book.[/spoiler]

The best episode by far was the previous week [spoiler]- Jon's aborted attempt to rescue the Wildings. [/spoiler] Simply brilliant.

Regards the spear as the weapon of choice for the Unsullied.

For some unknown reason I've been watching a lot of youtube about HEMA recently.

From what I gather, swords are often 'side arms' to be used if your main weapon such as a spear or polearm becomes unusable. When spears and polearms go against swords, the sword usually has an disadvantage.

Which is why they still use spears today, in the form of bayonets at least.

This is a casual observation, not something I've really studied.

They are stabbing attacks delivered outside of range... I can see the benefits! Only made rubbish by numbers and the need for dramatic effect.

Quote from: Theblazeuk on 12 June, 2015, 01:47:00 PM
They are stabbing attacks delivered outside of range... I can see the benefits!

There's a rather splendid sequence in Neal Stephenson's Baroque Cycle, in which the fairly obnoxious Earl of Upnor, in full battle armour with a sword, is taught a pretty severe lesson in the importance of reach:  [spoiler]"finest swordsman in England, beaten to death with a stick by an Irishman."[/spoiler]

Cheers

Jim

Isn't it correct etiquette for dragons to only let young females ride them if they completely disrobe before approaching them..... :P

Of  Gandalf (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSnWgodgehQ) need not apply, despite slight difference in mount.....


After reading the same passage from the book, I see they decided to keep it less messy.

nice pic that!

Another interesting season ending, with semi closure on a few strands. I'm sure all you book readers knew that was coming [spoiler]but I honestly expected him to survive[/spoiler].

Quote from: COMMANDO FORCES on 15 June, 2015, 08:51:11 AM
Another interesting season ending, with semi closure on a few strands. I'm sure all you book readers knew that was coming [spoiler]but I honestly expected him to survive[/spoiler].

I wonder if the first thing we see in the next season, one of those "previously on" bits, is [spoiler]the mercenary blokes who can resurrect people from a few seasons ago[/spoiler].

That would be interesting :thumbsup:

Quote from: ThryllSeekyr on 14 June, 2015, 02:33:30 PM
Isn't it correct etiquette for dragons to only let young females ride them if they completely disrobe before approaching them..... :P

It an all to common trope in fantasy and one i'm not very fond of at all.

Big shocker for a non-reader there! Heard there was a big death thought it was [spoiler]Stannis[/spoiler], no wait [spoiler]Sansa[/spoiler]...what  [spoiler]      Snow?![/spoiler] Not a good outing for the [spoiler]S's.[/spoiler] I thought [spoiler]Jon and Dannerys [/spoiler]would hook up at the end! Oh well at least mama got her big scene!

I haven't seen the latest series yet (although I have read all the books) but I have a feeling it might not all be over for that character. Thing is though, with George R R Martin, you never can tell....

well shit, that's the god damn biggest downer of an episode yet.  I've read the books, knew is was coming but god damn they just had to do it, I just cant concentrate on anything else, TV is ruined why oh why do we have to wait 12 months for more.  [spoiler]in saying that there's obviously something with the Red Lady 's appearing at Castle Black just before it all happened, we know she's not a complete sham (Shadow Baby) so there's hope for John Snow yet, not in the books yet but then again neither is Stannis's defeat.[/spoiler]

CU Radbacker

That was just like the last Harry Potter book...

Addendum:

(https://38.media.tumblr.com/df1fe0ea74643d35a036e34291489bdd/tumblr_npzps0OrI41u53ikxo1_500.gif)

Fuck you Game of Thrones.

Well i'm just finishing season 3 off now. So I should be caught up by season 6's premier.

I think the Dragon read The Horned God, it wouldn't budge from the ground last episode.

Absolutely gutted by the ending of this episode. I sincerely hope that the appearance of the Red Lady, being of the same faith as Thoros of Myr, is significant but even so it won't be the same. It makes total sense for Ser Alliser Thorne to do what he did but I honestly thought he had a grudging respect for the lad ("You have a good heart...").

And what about [spoiler]Frankenmountain[/spoiler]? Will he operate at the will of others or go AWOL?

Quote from: Third Estate Ned on 16 June, 2015, 11:58:40 AM
It makes total sense for Ser Alliser Thorne to do what he did but I honestly thought he had a grudging respect for the lad ("You have a good heart...").

Ser Alliser's betrayal was a shocker for me.
Although he openly disliked Jon, I too thought his grudging respect would overrule an outright betrayal.
He did let Jon and the Wildlings into the gate last week after all (albeit after a pause and sneer).

Very enjoyable season overall, roll on next April.

I think [spoiler]the betrayal[/spoiler] didn't really work because it departed from the logic of the books, where [spoiler]Snow asks Rangers to join him in abandoning their vows - and The Wall - to travel to Winterfell for a personally-motivated ruck with the Boltons.  This would have made Olly's betrayal make sense, as if Snow can abandon the Rangers' vows for vengeance upon the killers of his family, why not Olly?[/spoiler]  I think it's becoming too apparent now that a lot of twists and shocks are being done for the sake of it rather than because they serve the narrative, and that's impacting my enjoyment of the show.  The bit where [spoiler]Shir gets burned alive and squeals like a pig, the bit where Arya gets punched in the gut, where she keeps pulling off false faces, the seemingly endless stabs into Snow, and the crowd in Cersi's walk of shame[/spoiler] shouldn't have made me laugh with their palpable desperation to shock by over-egging things, but that's where I was.  The insults from the crowd and the Italian-police-style handling of the more rowdy crowd members by the monks especially seemed like something out of The Life Of Brian.  "FAWK OWF!"

I think the male nudity was more tolerable in  Life of Brian (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krb2OdQksMc)

Seriously, while a lot of you think a mere slip like Arya is on a one girl crusade to avenge her family or just father is cool. That's real nice, that's just gorgeous, but he should really team up or join the young girl or boy army. Because, bad luck or just hard is going to catch up with her sooner or later and it would be dead embarrassing to be one of her victims.

They could make the whole of the next season [spoiler]Tyrion and Varys running Meereen[/spoiler] and forget all the White Walker stuff, as far as I'm concerned...

Cheers

Jim

Jon was a dumbass because he didn't bother warning anyone else of the impending doom coming from the North - I seriously doubt that, even if they're a bunch of dumb murderers and rapists, that they'd ignore the testimony of their brothers who'd seen the White Walkers up close.

But, as I've said, I reckon this should be it for the Night's Watch. There's no reason for them to still be there, they've got basically no members left (a few hundred, maybe?) and they've just murdered their own Lord Commander. Given that they know what's coming, I'd be on my way to Braavos to join a mercenary army at this point, vow be damned.

Quote[spoiler]Ser Alliser's betrayal was a shocker for me.
Although he openly disliked Jon, I too thought his grudging respect would overrule an outright betrayal.
He did let Jon and the Wildlings into the gate last week after all (albeit after a pause and sneer).[/spoiler]

Yep, I was suspected that it wouldn't be [spoiler]Thorne who would betray Jon[/spoiler], and he would instead be the one to get on the wrong side of Wun Wun and meet a sticky end (as another character does in the books).

QuoteI think the [spoiler]betrayal[/spoiler] didn't really work because...

Yeah. In the books Jon also goes from a position of 'The Watch takes no part' (refusing to help Stannis and openly defying him) to slowly getting drawn into advising and directly helping him, as well as arranging various pacts and marriages between Stannis' bannermen and the Wildlings and even inducting many Wildlings into the Night's Watch. It makes the [spoiler]betrayal absolutely inevitable, and when he announces his intention to march on Winterfell to rescue his sister - as well as the unfortunate giant-related business - it's the last straw[/spoiler]. As with the [spoiler]downfall of Ned, Robb and so many other characters in the series[/spoiler], it's not a cheap 'shock' soap opera-style twist for twists sake, it's been heavily foreshadowed and ultimately makes perfect logical sense.

There's absolutely no way [spoiler]Jon is staying dead[/spoiler], but I think in true GRRM style, the [spoiler]manner of his return[/spoiler] will not be what people are hoping for or expecting, and [spoiler]he most certainly won't be the Jon we know[/spoiler]...

QuoteThe bit where... ...shouldn't have made me laugh with their palpable desperation to shock by over-egging things, but that's where I was.

Yes, I see where you're coming from. Personally I couldn't help but imagine the Sworn Brothers discussing their plans:

[spoiler]"I'm going to make a cross and write 'TRAITOR' on it! You know, really set the scene."

"Really, Jeff? Isn't that a bit dramatic?"[/spoiler]

QuoteI'd be on my way to Braavos to join a mercenary army at this point

I think Braavos would be just about the only pleasant place to live in the whole of Westeros and Essos (with maybe the exception of Highgarden). Love how they've brought it to life on screen.

Mild book spoilers below...

I do wonder where this current status quo leaves poor old [spoiler]Theon. In the books he's Stannis' captive, but with Stannis out of the picture.... Will Melisandre sacrifice him (he has King's Blood after all) to resurrect Jon? And will he give his life willingly to finally achieve some sense of redemption?[/spoiler]

Quote from: radiator on 16 June, 2015, 05:05:39 PM
it's been heavily foreshadowed and ultimately makes perfect logical sense.

Yep. Those [spoiler]Starks are really terrrible at politics, aren't they?[/spoiler]

Cheers

Jim

Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 16 June, 2015, 03:02:59 PM
They could make the whole of the next season [spoiler]Tyrion and Varys running Meereen[/spoiler]

I'm picturing a high fantasy The Thick of It with more murder and nudity.

Quote from: ThryllSeekyr on 16 June, 2015, 02:26:09 PM
Because, bad luck or just hard is going to catch up with her sooner or later

Hard LUCK!

Quote from: radiator on 16 June, 2015, 05:05:39 PM

Mild book spoilers below...

I do wonder where this current status quo leaves poor old [spoiler]Theon. In the books he's Stannis' captive, but with Stannis out of the picture.... Will Melisandre sacrifice him (he has King's Blood after all) to resurrect Jon? And will he give his life willingly to finally achieve some sense of redemption?[/spoiler]

I think book spoilers are pretty meaningless at this point. They've chucked the books out the window. Stannis is out the left, Brienne is upside down, whilst I can't figure out what they're doing with Jamie and Dorne.

And the Ironborn are nowhere to be seen.

Book spoilers (yes I know I declared them meaningless):

[spoiler]There's a theory that Daario Naharis and Euron Greyjoy are the same person.
That's why the Ironborn have been omitted from this season. Don a tinfoil hat and google "Daario Euron". It's a helova deep rabbit hole.[/spoiler]

Quote from: Doctor Pops on 16 June, 2015, 09:47:04 PM
There's a theory that Daario Naharis and Euron Greyjoy are the same person.

I think when we start spoiling theories (for which the evidence is extraordinarily patchy, at best) then we might as well give up. The Ironborn were omitted from this season because there was already too much stuff anyway, I'd have thought.

If the Greyjoys and their friends become big characters next season, though, something will need to give. Dorne will have to be done, or Winterfell, or something. Even if they expand it to 8 seasons and not just 7, there's a ton of stuff that still needs to happen so I'm at a loss as to where it all goes.

It seems the smart money is on the show making sure they didn't go too far past the books in any of the main storylines to give GRRM the chance to actually publish the next book before season 6 starts - as if he doesn't, there'll be plenty of readers who'll just watch the show and read the book recap in a Wiki or something.

Quote from: Third Estate Ned on 16 June, 2015, 08:36:29 PM
I'm picturing a high fantasy The Thick of It with more murder and nudity.

That's a spin-off show, right there. If they could find room for Bronn, as well...

Cheers

Jim

(http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb36/jimcampbell2000/MaMa_Lannister_zpskalrss1o.jpg)

Quote from: Famous Mortimer on 17 June, 2015, 03:26:09 PM
as if he doesn't, there'll be plenty of readers who'll just watch the show and read the book recap in a Wiki or something.

Crossed my mind the other night. But the big differences in [spoiler]Brienne & Jamie[/spoiler]'s storylines may keep me going back. Otherwise I care less about the book's threads than the TV shows, due to all the sprawl. For concrete examples see Dorne & The Ironborn.

I thought Lena Heady was superb in that last episode

Quote from: Bad City Blue on 18 June, 2015, 03:46:03 PM
I thought Lena Heady was superb in that last episode

I saw her naked  :P

It was actually a body double.

http://www.cinemablend.com/television/Game-Thrones-Lena-Headey-Used-Body-Double-Cersei-Walk-72464.html (http://www.cinemablend.com/television/Game-Thrones-Lena-Headey-Used-Body-Double-Cersei-Walk-72464.html)

Quote from: Bad City Blue on 18 June, 2015, 03:46:03 PM
I thought Lena Heady was superb in that last episode

She was, and I guess we're going to see her exact some revenge next season. But...she's sort of really really horrible, though, so seeing one horrible person get revenge on other horrible people is sort of a tough sell for the only storyline remotely connected to where the show started from.

All I'm asking for is a few people to root for. Is that too much to ask?

Quote from: Hawkmonger on 18 June, 2015, 08:17:45 PM
It was actually a body double.

http://www.cinemablend.com/television/Game-Thrones-Lena-Headey-Used-Body-Double-Cersei-Walk-72464.html (http://www.cinemablend.com/television/Game-Thrones-Lena-Headey-Used-Body-Double-Cersei-Walk-72464.html)

Now that you found that piece of info, I did think it was odd that her breasts were bigger and floppier than they looked in the 300 film. They say that happens to women after they have children of their own, though. 

This is a thread about Game of Thrones, not about what goes on in your head. Please refrain from posting stuff like this again.

Quote from: Famous Mortimer on 19 June, 2015, 08:23:13 AM
All I'm asking for is a few people to root for. Is that too much to ask?

(http://cdn.fansided.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/229/files/2014/04/got12-podrick.gif)

Is that a reaction or an example? :lol:

Team Pod! And omg  ::)

Interview with Lena Heady's body double, & how 'that' scene was filmed:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/game-of-thrones/11684225/Game-of-Thrones-Lena-Headeys-nude-body-double-revealed.html

Time to give this particular topic a rest now, I think...

Quote from: GordonR on 19 June, 2015, 01:48:08 PM
Time to give this particular topic a rest now, I think...
[/quote

Please!!

Disagree largely with this article as never had much time for Dorne, but here is an article to chew over:

http://io9.com/how-to-fix-what-s-wrong-with-game-of-thrones-1712355749




(I was impressed how long it went before any mention at all)

For some reason this thread reminds me of Picard in Extras...

Patrick Stewart: Yeah. For instance, I'm walking along, and I see this beautiful girl, and I think I'd like to see her naked, and so all her clothes fall off.

Andy Millman: All her - clothes fall off?

Patrick Stewart: Yes, and she's scrabbling around to get them back on again, but even before she can get her knickers on, I've seen everything. Yeah. I've seen it all.

I'm rooting for Ramsay Bolton from now on, that dude knows how to get things done. Pod had one job and messed it up.

I don't think there's tons wrong with the show that didn't come from the original text. GRRM left Dany off on her own way too damn long, and (by his own account) stretched something originally intended for three books way thinner than it needed to be. This quote from that io9 article sums it up perfectly:

QuoteA Storm of Swords is a drunken orgy of carnage, and the two books that follow are, in many ways, the hangover.

A hangover that lasts for two books. There's not a lot you can do with that, as a TV show. I've been thinking about this, and - picking a book at random off my shelf - looking at "The Count of Monte Cristo" by Dumas. It's one of the most extraordinarily entertaining stories ever written, and packs a huge amount of story and detail and characters and fun into 1200 pages. If he'd written it in the 21st century, he'd have been told by his publisher to make it a trilogy, put in a bunch of stuff no-one cared about, give the entire history of France during the text, and if it was popular, stretch it to five or six.

How the show can "solve its problems" is to have more light to go along with the dark and to start moving things into place for a conclusion of some sort. That's it. But next season we're going to get even more Meereen and now a bunch of Iron Islands stuff...

Quote from: Famous Mortimer on 19 June, 2015, 04:58:13 PMI've been thinking about this, and - picking a book at random off my shelf - looking at "The Count of Monte Cristo" by Dumas. It's one of the most extraordinarily entertaining stories ever written, and packs a huge amount of story and detail and characters and fun into 1200 pages. If he'd written it in the 21st century, he'd have been told by his publisher to make it a trilogy, put in a bunch of stuff no-one cared about, give the entire history of France during the text, and if it was popular, stretch it to five or six.

I'll be honest, I agree with the basic concept of today's sprawling sagas frequently being inferior to an older, smaller volume. However, I'm not completely convinced about your idea of holding up a book longer than than Lord of the Rings (including the appendices) as a model of brevity!

I don't think it's a model of brevity by any reasonable standard (although the last half of the book, when his plan comes together, is one of the most amazing sections of literature ever written - get the Richard Pevear translation, if you're going to read it at all) but it's a short story compared to what ASOIAF will be by the time it's done.

I don't know. I feel like endless swathes of text has been given over to analysing Martin's books and this show when I'm not 100% sure they deserve it. Take "Breaking Bad", for example, a show which I've seen compared to GOT more than once since the season finale. It had light to go with the dark, a story which seemed simple (mild mannered teacher gradually turns into Scarface) but was anything but, two of the greatest central performances we'll ever see on TV, a wonderful finale...I'm sorry, I'm on these horrifically strong painkillers and my mind is wandering a little.

GOT has Dinklage, who's extraordinary; Coster-Waldau, who could be great but is ill-served by his character's dull storyline; Headey, who's fine; and lots and lots of sort-of-okay TV actors. Perhaps they could be fantastic, but with five minutes an episode we're never going to find out (Cunningham and Glen, for two). It's had scenes which are amazing for the action they portray, but it's never had a dialogue scene as perfect as "I am the one who knocks".

If it doesn't want to play with those "prestige drama" big boys, then it needs to get off its ass and do something a bit more genre-y. Take the "Chekhov's Gun" principle and apply it to Dany's dragons. It's taken three (four?) entire seasons before they bothered doing anything with any of them. Imagine Walter White waiting til season four of "Breaking Bad" before deciding to start cooking meth?

Sorry...again, struggling to concentrate. Much as I found the last two books to be a pretty unbearable slog, I've felt with a lot of season 5 of GOT. Going back to that article, the show would be better served by letting at least one of the main plot threads have a season off. Or having an asteroid destroy Meereen and everything in it, with a bit breaking off to blow up Dany and whoever's with her, allowing Tyrion and Varys time to escape of course.

GOT is pretty dark fare but that's the point for it is about power. You win the game of thrones- or you die.

The sort of people who are attracted to power may be the last people we wish to acquire it, sociopaths, psychopaths and narcissists but they make effective leaders because they are unconcerned with moral outcomes. Only what serves their best interest is relevant to them and therefore they can cut through the quagmire of competing issues to what they believe will give them the result they desire.

Television must in some way reflect society and we all know that very immoral indeed amoral events have taken place recently. The banking crisis caused by the insidious greed of the Bankers, various wars that Western powers have engaged in have resulted in something close to true anarchy in Africa, Iraq and Afghanistan. Our leaders whom most of us are increasingly estranged from promise this that and the other yet seem to be only interested in their own supporters or like minded followers and the general belief is that all politicians are in some way corrupt; in hoc to private enterprise or if Liberal/socialist the Trades Unions and the EU. We all complain about this sense of dislocation but what to do about this feeling of drift no one seems to know.

So thats why I think GOT is such must see TV. It reflects an awful truth we suspect that in an amoral universe- the amoral tend to prosper! This is only partially true since despite the awful privations endured by say the Stark family all is not lost. Bran ,Sansa and Arya still live indeed Arya went through a brutal 'training' period with the Hound as Mentor turning her into a remorseless killer. Anyway if you want power you must be prepared to fight dirty as Bronn the sell sword quipped as he sends a knight to his doom-'Yes-he fought fair!' In GOT as in real life fairness and power just don't go together very well.

That io9 article is bonkers. It boils down to "let's improve the Game of Thronee TV series by making it more boring."

Quote from: IAMTHESYSTEM on 20 June, 2015, 11:44:48 AM
So thats why I think GOT is such must see TV. It reflects an awful truth we suspect that in an amoral universe- the amoral tend to prosper!

Telling us what we know about the world doesn't make it "must see" for me. I'd suggest having a read (and watching) the Grantland.com coverage of GoT, it's been excellent and they talk a lot about how bashing us over the head with "the worst possible thing that can happen, will" is okay for a while, but begins to grate after five seasons.

I'll offer another for-instance. I recently watched "Still The Enemy Within", the documentary about the miners' strike. It was, undoubtedly, a terrible time for communities up and down the UK - police brutality, no money, the press against them, no support from the Labour Party - and the documentary could well have been a catalogue of the misery of that year. But it talked about the friendships that were formed, the way that traditional homophobia was broken down, the comedy in trying to get round the police lines, and so on.

GoT needs more of that. We know things are awful and are unlikely to get a lot better, but even in dark times, there's some light. Dorne could have been a bit of swashbuckling fun, for example, but it ended up being the death of a girl we'd barely seen just to make Jaime's life even worse, and yet more war coming from it.

I think someone attached to the show realises this - hence Tyrion's line a few episodes ago about not wanting to see so much death as part of his leisure time.

Which GoT character are YOU?

http://variety.com/2015/tv/features/quiz-which-game-of-thrones-character-are-you-1201470853/

(I got Ned Stark  ::))

I'm not mocking any potential sense of fan entitlement because I think that's a bullshit shield terrible creators use to hide themselves behind but genuinely what I actually love about this forum is the type of person that says "GoT needs to be more like the UK miner's strike in the 80s" :D

What you're saying FM is totally right - the series Treme which is possibly my favourite series is "boring" in many peoples eyes but gets the balance between light and shade that make our everyday reality routinely so hideously terrible and tremendously wonderful. It's something all proper drama should manage but largely always fails to - worlds in "adult dramas" are sometimes just hilariously one-note grimdark (see "Penny Dreadful" - the first season particularly which makes any happiness seem an outrageous aberration. In fact you could pinpoint an incoming murder by anyone cracking a grin).

GoT needs more Podricks and Tyrions - the balance is way off and the fandoms know it too. I mean - a lot of major fan webspots are refusing to cover it any more - it's more than just "oh the Red Wedding that was harsh man" - it's just relentless rape and death for teh shock alone.

Quote from: CrazyFoxMachine on 22 June, 2015, 11:30:56 PM

GoT needs more Podricks and Tyrions ...

*nods*

"Hodor"

I finished watched series 5 on Sunday evening. Have to say I really enjoyed this series overall after hearing folks saying it wasn't as good as the previous ones - I really thought the first 7 episodes worked well as it seemed to focus on some of the smaller interactions between some of the characters, rather than looking at the big ol' Game of Thrones they're playing. Some nice character moments, especially the interaction between Cersei and Marjery! This is why I think they could have essentially finished at episode 7 for this series, because...

(Just in case) [spoiler]...the appearance of the army of the dead (and FWIW, I loved it totally) in ep. 8 was a real change of tone and pace and with the apparent 'death' of Jon Snow, it felt like the rug was pulled away just when we we're getting into another story. I agree it might not be the last we see of him in some form or another: the Brothers said 'for the Watch' and admittedly there was a 'traitor' sign, but I can't help but think somehow Melisandra convinced them he needed to be sacrificed 'for the Watch'. Resurrection may take place, either from the Lord of Light or by 'Frankenmaestor'. I'm more annoyed by the apparent death of Stannis, whom I've loved from the minute he appeared.[/spoiler]

I don't know anyone else in fleshspace who has time for Stannis on screen, but for me the performance by Stephen Dillane is a masterclass in understatement. I can at all times feel the undercurrent of frustration and doomed obligations he feels, the desire for righteousness, plus in his own way he was the only one who, as has been mentioned earlier, tries to do the just thing and is the only one of the main family heads with a legitimate claim. sigh You can stick your Mormont man-crush!

Lena Heady continued her magnificence in the series too. Wasn't really all that interested in Daenerys this time around, but pretty much [spoiler]punched the air when she climbed on Drogon's back.
[/spoiler]

Anyhoo, I miss it already.

M.

Quotebut for me the performance by Stephen Dillane is a masterclass in understatement.

Yup. His performance goes a long way to making what is actually a repulsive and horribly selfish character seem sympathetic. And considering what he's done, that's quite a feat.

I like how they pulled a trick on us with Stannis - there's a lot of effort in the later books and tv seasons to make him likable and humanise him so he becomes someone to really root for, then suddenly we're reminded: oh yeah, this is the same guy who used sorcery to murder his own brother, and who regularly burns people alive in the name of a very sketchy religion.

See, I just liked his whole thread in the show because from the start it I found it the most genuinely dark and intriguing. Hard to resist a brooding, angry and determined loner as I say to the sheilas with the Onion Knight at his side. [spoiler]I really thought he'd be the consistent thorn in the side of the Iron Throne through most of the story, so was right behind him.[/spoiler] A lot of the characters are right self serving feckers, whose worse excesses are in the family, past or perhaps to come and he just happened to have a religious fanatic on his case from the start pushing him in a certain, terrible direction.

I was also a bit annoyed [spoiler]Bran didn't show this series. That was getting interesting![/spoiler]

M.

Quote from: Mikey on 30 June, 2015, 05:01:46 PM
I was also a bit annoyed [spoiler]Bran didn't show this series. That was getting interesting![/spoiler]

As I understand it, they'd used up his entire (wafer thin) plot from the books by the end of last season and if GRRM knows what's supposed to happen next, he ain't saying...

Cheers

Jim

Quote from: radiator on 30 June, 2015, 04:36:51 PM
I like how they pulled a trick on us with Stannis - there's a lot of effort in the later books and tv seasons to make him likable and humanise him so he becomes someone to really root for, then suddenly we're reminded: oh yeah, this is the same guy who used sorcery to murder his own brother, and who regularly burns people alive in the name of a very sketchy religion.

Absolutely. Great performance, too, but I think the way they twisted his character to get him ready for what happened (for a man so obsessed with succession, why kill his only heir?) didn't serve him or the show very well. I never particularly bought he was interested in "the greater good" either, power seemed its own end for him. And his much-vaunted tactical prowess went right to hell at the end.

Daenerys is fine from time to time (like getting on that dragon) but unlike Jon Snow, she hasn't grown a great deal as a character. Still making rotten decisions, still that unbearable wait before her character does something relevant to the game of thrones.

The Jon Snow thing...why not, as soon as the gates opened, shout "there's a massive chuffing army of ice zombies! Coming this way! We need to do something!" Instead, he goes and mopes for a bit until the kid, who was obviously going to murder Jon since the beginning of the season, murders him. The best explanation is "some people just aren't ready for Jon's out-of-the-box thinking", but the show could have maybe used some of its sexual violence time and expanded on that theme a little.

Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 30 June, 2015, 05:12:14 PM

Quote from: Mikey on 30 June, 2015, 05:01:46 PM
I was also a bit annoyed [spoiler]Bran didn't show this series. That was getting interesting![/spoiler]

As I understand it, they'd used up his entire (wafer thin) plot from the books by the end of last season and if GRRM knows what's supposed to happen next, he ain't saying...

Cheers

Jim

They've also said they wanted to rest the character for a while, so that when we see him next he's [spoiler]undergone his training with the three-eyed raven and is totally transformed.[/spoiler]

They referenced how we meet Luke Skywalker in Return of the Jedi.

[spoiler]Hodor.[/spoiler]

Euron Lovejoy...?

http://variety.com/2015/tv/news/game-of-thrones-ian-mcshane-1201554773/ (http://variety.com/2015/tv/news/game-of-thrones-ian-mcshane-1201554773/)

And Max Von Sydow cast as the mysterious Three-Eyed Raven.

They get good castings in Season 6!

Quote from: Goaty on 04 August, 2015, 01:16:35 PM
And Max Von Sydow cast as the mysterious Three-Eyed Raven.

They get good castings in Season 6!

Max von Sydow?  I wonder how long his character will last?  Whenever I see him in a film he's generally playing a person in a high position who dies during the course of a movie: [spoiler]Flash, Judge Dredd, Minority Report[/spoiler], etc...

Well I think he's already technically dead.

I binged a bit of Bojack Horseman. Actually really enjoyed it though possibly a little tired of Hollywood writing about Hollywood.

They are really bringing out the big guns aren't they.

There's two possible roles McShane could be playing, and he'd be a fantastic choice for either.

Really, really curious to see how season 6 plays out. So many popular characters are dead or AWOL, and so many popular storylines are finished. I have a few good guesses what the main narrative thrust of the season will be, and my betting is that we're going to be spending the majority of it away from King's Landing with a much greater focus on the extremes - Mereen and beyond the Wall especially.

Kings Landing still has a few plot threads dangling. [spoiler]Marjery and Lorice, Jaime returning with a dead daughter in tow, Frankenstein-Mountain, and Cerci coming to terms with granting the nutters more power than herself.[/spoiler]

I do think the Myrcella stuff was badly handled- we [spoiler]knew basically nothing about her, and now she's (presumably) dead[/spoiler].  Jaimie's involvement seemed to short-circuit all the potentially interesting Dorne politicking, leaving Bashir seming a very dull character indeed.

And while I understand the need for odd-couple pairings so that characters' thoughts can be externalised for TV, it's possible that Jaimie/Bron was one too many for this season.

I'll usually always defend the changes the show writers make, but imo the whole Dorne fiasco was a complete and utter disaster. Probably the worst thing in the show's history. Even the fight scenes were shite. I really wish that they hadn't bothered with doing Dorne at all (as was the original plan I believe).

While they cast the part well, they totally failed to do Doran any justice. In the books he has a fantastic last scene that makes you completely re-evalute the character and makes him awesome - in the show he's just dull dull dull.

I'm undecided about Stannis. I love his storyline in the books, but since his introduction in the TV show they've done such a disservice to him its probably for the best that they have curtailed his role prematurely to focus on other things.

There's surely no chance that Brienne [spoiler]has actually offed Stannis[/spoiler] though, is there?  Was it not setup for these two to get together and learn from each other's notions of duty and divine right, not to mention the treatment of daughters?

My belief is if you didn't see them die, they ain't dead.

Quote from: Hawkmonger on 04 August, 2015, 07:48:44 PM
My belief is if you didn't see them die, they ain't dead.

And generally not even if you do. I think of it as the Dante Effect.

Quote from: TotalHack on 04 August, 2015, 07:57:10 PM

Quote from: Hawkmonger on 04 August, 2015, 07:48:44 PM
My belief is if you didn't see them die, they ain't dead.

And generally not even if you do. I think of it as the Dante Effect.

Nah, [spoiler]Stannis[/spoiler] is super dead. No question in my mind. And I actually like that they didn't show the blade hitting him. It was a rare moment of restraint on the part of the show and granted him at least a little dignity in death. Mark my words, we've seen the last of him.

My belief is that he's also dead in the books*. Personally I never doubted the authenticity of the [spoiler]'Pink Letter'[/spoiler]. The conspiracies to the contrary are wishful thinking by pro-[spoiler]Stannis[/spoiler] loonies. Like Robb Stark before him, his story is done - there's nowhere else for him to go.

You know who's also definitely, 100% dead and not coming back? [spoiler]Syrio Forell[/spoiler].

*Well, semi-dead. He's both alive and dead due to the wonky chronology of the books. He'll be in The Winds of Winter, but not for long.

Hmm, but notice how a girl gagged a man when explaining why a girl was torturing and killing him. No opportunity for a man to say 'but I didn't!'. 

It would be so, so dumb if Syrio came back. I get that he's a fan-favourite character, but that's what makes his death so effective. If he turned out to be some sort of shape-shifting assassin guardian angel it would suck.

I'm on the fence about the current status of [spoiler]The Hound[/spoiler]. I must admit, I totally missed the whole [spoiler]'Gravedigger'[/spoiler] thing when I read that chapter of A Feast For Crows, but it's a convincing theory.

[spoiler]Jon[/spoiler] is totally coming back though - that's a given.

About the Dragon....


Did it just teleport there through some fireball or something?

If this one wasn't big enough, why  not bring in more dragons and let them all fly to safety.

Quote from: ThryllSeekyr on 08 August, 2015, 06:46:54 AM

If this one wasn't big enough, why  not bring in more dragons and let them all fly to safety.

That's Drogon, Scourge of Goatherders, the only one of the three who's out and about. Rhaegol (sp?) and Viserion are locked up under the palace in Mereen.

QuoteDid it just teleport there through some fireball or something?

:|

and that's why he's STILL The Mayor.

You can just about se how it made it's entrance right there in that gif.

It terms of game I have ben playing, it just drooped out of Super-Cruise, or something....

Don't want to make a new thread for this but Richard E Grant and (the actor) Kev Eldon in GoT:

http://watchersonthewall.com/richard-e-grants-game-of-thrones-role-revealed/#more-45025

(http://watchersonthewall.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Ned.jpg)

Is that definitely Eldon? Amazing if it is.

And I'm utterly delighted that Withnail is joining the cast.

He's playing Lord Quinlack and he likes a weak lemon drink.

They're the worst wigs since this guy:

(http://i.imgur.com/oVeWA6Ol.jpg)

Quote from: radiator on 11 September, 2015, 10:30:05 PM
Is that definitely Eldon? Amazing if it is.

I'm pretty certain although at this point it's not confirmed anywhere it sure as balls looks like him!

Quote from: JOE SOAP on 11 September, 2015, 10:45:54 PM


They're the worst wigs since this guy:

(http://i.imgur.com/oVeWA6Ol.jpg)

They're playing [spoiler]a troupe of actors performing a play based on the War of the Five Kings[/spoiler], so the wigs are supposed to look like wigs..

Quote from: radiator on 11 September, 2015, 11:11:25 PM
They're playing [spoiler]a troupe of actors performing a play based on the War of the Five Kings[/spoiler], so the wigs are supposed to look like wigs..

Even better - I knew there had to be a reason.

Quote from: judda fett on 11 September, 2015, 10:33:55 PM
He's playing Lord Quinlack and he likes a weak lemon drink.

LIKE.

Aaaand the news is officially broken today by one Lady Geoffery....

http://watchersonthewall.com/kevin-eldon-joins-the-cast-of-game-of-thrones/

It's a conspiracy I tell thee ;)