Hmmm,
wasn't sure if I was going to post this, but here we go.
I'm not really enjoying the prog at the moment, nor for a while if I'm honest.
I'm trying to figure out exactly what it is, but the hit to miss rate for me isn't great.
Dredd is usually solid, Deadworld I've enjoyed, but other strips just don't seem to work for me, Scarlet Traces I loved as the collected editions previously, but week to week, not so much.
That, combined with quite a few strips left hanging and I'm wondering if it's time to call it a day.
Maybe it's a combination of factors, but it's just not doing it for me, and feels like it's read more out of habit, in the same way I read it in the 90s.
Subscription ends in October - I've turned off auto-renewal.
Will you still be reading the Meg? Seems like a bad idea to stop reading just in time for Dominion.
Both subs run out in October.
Not sure how many issues Dominion is going to run for...
I've not even read the end of Lawless or the tales from the black museum in the meg - I think digital makes b/w strips more of a chore, certainly feels like that anyway.
Dominion is six episodes.
OK, cheers.
2000AD isn't always amazing, but it's always at least good.
I know I'd miss it if I stopped reading it and I'm sure you would too, Steve.
Wednesday's just wouldn't be the same anymore.
I've found myself forgetting until a couple of days past Wednesday that there was a new prog, so I didn't really miss it that much.
Overall I've enjoyed the Space Spinner 2000 podcasts revisiting ancient progs far more than I've enjoyed the prog for a good year.
Looking at the returning stories, there's not a lot which grabs me, sorry.
Until the last few issues the Prog has been consistantly excellent still Prog 2000. But that's the Prog for you one reader's golden age is another reader's Rogue Trooper.
I've only started back on the Meg for the last couple of years but that's by and large been consistantly good.
The trouble is if you drop it you'll not know what ya missing!
Quote from: Steve Green on 04 July, 2017, 07:04:52 PM
Hmmm,
wasn't sure if I was going to post this, but here we go.
I'm not really enjoying the prog at the moment, nor for a while if I'm honest.
I'm trying to figure out exactly what it is, but the hit to miss rate for me isn't great.
Dredd is usually solid, Deadworld I've enjoyed, but other strips just don't seem to work for me, Scarlet Traces I loved as the collected editions previously, but week to week, not so much.
That, combined with quite a few strips left hanging and I'm wondering if it's time to call it a day.
Maybe it's a combination of factors, but it's just not doing it for me, and feels like it's read more out of habit, in the same way I read it in the 90s.
Subscription ends in October - I've turned off auto-renewal.
It's not just you........ive really been struggling this last year or so really. There are things that occasionally catch my attention such as Deadworld (really enjoyed that), but to be brutally honest I'm missing regular John Wagner. I desperately want a long run of Wagner Dredd and I'm always hopeful for more Strontium Dog. If Johnny was still a regular thrill I would be reading every week. This is what I'm sorely missing. I tend to be collecting up 15-20 progs at a time at the moment before I read .
As for the Meg, Lawless has been the driver of my continued subscription, that strip is pure class and is just a wonder to behold. Can't praise the team responsible enough.
I am fully aware that it's not that the quality of the prog that has decreased, it's just that I'm an (increasingly) old school reader and John and the old favourites are what I love and crave. I hope the prog continues forever and that the readers continue to enjoy the strips.......but the prog may well have outgrown me. I tend to read the older stuff more than I read the new.
My 9 year old son is currently reading through all of the original strontium dog tales and he's loving them, and I'm getting more joy out of that than reading the current progs myself.
Hopefully I'll get the love back......but it has faded considerably.
As I said, this is just my own mindset, so please don't crucify me for it!
I stopped reading early last year for similar reasons, feeling generally a bit dissatisfied with the prog, and haven't missed it nearly as much as I thought I would, to be honest! The things I had planned to jump back onboard for - Absalom, Stronty, Indigo Prime, Jaegir, etc - are all still AWOL!
Steve Green I'm with you mate.
Dredd and Defoe are only strips i'm reading in the prog, and whilst i enjoy those i have to say i prefer reading
the Meg much more these days myself.
Cant wait for return of Wagner with Dominion though.
Definately felt the loss of regular Wagner since Day of Chaos.
I won't lie and say 2000 AD is as strong to my tastes as it was even just a few years ago. But its always entertaining for my money, (even if that means I have to endure 1/5 of its content seemingly always being a Pat Mills vehicle). Some strips that I feel would stabilize things tend to come along too infrequently. Absalom, Indigo Prime, Jaegir, Alienist, etc...
This year's gave us more Kingdom, The Order, Scarlet Traces, Brink, and Deadworld. Which is all together solid. And has also given us Kingmaker. So its hard to really complain.
But I won't lie, we're a long way from the greatest Prog of all time, 1651 (2nd June 2009). The hole created by the loss of Nikolai Dante has yet to really be filled IMO
I think for anyone who's read the comic as long as many of us have on this forum thrill-power fatigue is bound to set in at some point.
2000AD is still consistently the most entertaining and high quality comic on the shelves though.
I would also agree that Nikolai Dante did leave a vacuum that has never been filled (for me). Certainly my favourite "modern" strip.
I just don't particularly have anything in the prog right now to hook me in. If Wagner was still the regular week in week out Dredd writer, that would be enough, if Alpha was semi regular, that would be my go to. I'm just failing to sync with anything much in there this last year or two.
Money is increasingly tight, and feel like I'm just building piles of comics for no real reason.
This might just be an age thing......similarly lost my interest in drawing, something that was always hand in hand with my 2000ad interest.
Hopefully my love will be rekindled shortly.
Quote from: The Adventurer on 05 July, 2017, 12:31:22 AM
The hole created by the loss of Nikolai Dante has yet to really be filled IMO
For me, the hole created by the absence of Robbie Morrison is a similar issue. I'm just not into the work of several of the current writers (all of whom, I should note, are undoubtedly talented folks - their work's just not for me.) Likewise, the 'lots of different strips by the same writer' model is a hurdle - I'd rather see the same strips returning more frequently, to really build up a head of steam, and to have a chance of converting me to a believer in their merits.
Yeah, I've definitely lost interest in a lot of other stuff. I put it down to the overwhelming amount of genre TV and film that's out there. Combine that with the grind of doing the post-production on the fan-film and it really sucked the fun out of it.
Pile on ridiculous feuds in cosplay groups, twitterstorms about whichever film or TV series was doing 'x' wrong, and over it all a relentless army of dead-eyed funko figures popping up on my timeline and I got a massive feeling of 'I really can't be arsed with any of this shit'
I cancelled Netflix because I just wasn't watching it, it ending up feeling like a chore that I should do than one I wanted to.
Quote from: The Adventurer on 05 July, 2017, 12:31:22 AM
This year's gave us more Kingdom, The Order, Scarlet Traces, Brink, and Deadworld. Which is all together solid. And has also given us Kingmaker. So its hard to really complain
These (along with Dredd of course) have been the best strips for me over the past few months, too. By comparison the current line-up isn't anywhere near as strong. Defoe is weirdly compelling, more as a snapshot of Pat Mills' current writing style than as an enjoyable strip in its own right. Grey Area is OK but not Dan Abnett's finest work. Hunted still doesn't even register. BUT, after a few weeks two of three of those strips will have made way for replacements, and the prog could take on another new complexion (Hope, anyone..?)
I think I mentioned in another thread recently that 2000 AD it the moment is lacking 'heroes' - characters that feature in a succession of short, and occasionally longer length, stories. A few people seem to be a bit disenchanted with the high number of 'ongoing' stories. For me 2000 AD has always been about classic characters who can be plunged into a succession of adventures, not epic-length serials. In that sense, Nikolai Dante is a serious loss.
Quote from: norton canes on 05 July, 2017, 09:58:49 AM
I think I mentioned in another thread recently that 2000 AD it the moment is lacking 'heroes' - characters that feature in a succession of short, and occasionally longer length, stories. A few people seem to be a bit disenchanted with the high number of 'ongoing' stories. For me 2000 AD has always been about classic characters who can be plunged into a succession of adventures, not epic-length serials. In that sense, Nikolai Dante is a serious loss.
Yeah, I said the same recently - there's too much 'Book 3 of this saga' and 'Book 9 of that saga.' I'd rather have character-led strips that can drop in for a one-parter, three-parter or twelve-parter - a new Dante, basically!
Brave post. I am experiencing a similar malaise—maybe explaining my absence here—and like others have said upthread, I sometimes forget the comics have arrived now, whereas I used to whip the Prog and Meg straight off the mat and eagerly devour them right away.
Brink and Outlaw are consistently brilliant, and we continue to see top notch artistic talent, with Henry Flint, Carl Critchlow, Chris Weston, Brendan McCarthy, D'Israeli, INJ Culbard, Colin MacNeil et al all featuring recently. I would love a new writer to really start to blossom, like Spurrier, Rob Williams, Robbie Morrison and (particularly) Al Ewing all did in the last generation. Guy Adams has done some fine work, but I'm maybe missing a new and exciting voice to sit alongside stalwarts Dabnett, Grennie, Edgington, Mills and Carroll et al, and there hasn't really been as compelling and exciting protagonist since Dante. The droid's merits can be debated one way or the other, based on personal preference, so that's down to one's individual taste. But for me, the deeper cause is something bigger...
This isn't the political thread, nor the black dog thread, but I do feel generally down with the state of the world. Health, family, work are all fine (which I'm thankful for) but since Brexit, Trump, Grenfell Tower, the terrorist attacks, and the spurious general election and DUP bribe, I feel like I'm living in some kind of oppressive, sad, fug.
My mind is on bigger problems and I'm not enjoying stuff—specifically comics, music and sport—but have retreated into binge watching one box set after another (currently on The Bureau which is fantastic btw). I think this is called "anhedonia". Like a kid not allowed to have their dessert until their plate is clean, something in me feels wrong to be enjoying Wimbledon for example, when more and more bad stuff is coming out every day. Frankly, I'm reading real dystopian horrors in The Guardian and the New York Times now, not just in the fictional world of Mega City One.
Maybe that's an over-reaction. Maybe we just go through phases with the Prog, which is to be expected when you've been reading something for nearly your whole life...! And, of course, 2000 AD has always been anti-establishment, has always provided an original, disruptive voice. So if answers are to be found anywhere, maybe it's likely to be here. For that reason, my subscription will remain in place. Cheers.
Quote from: Steve Green on 04 July, 2017, 07:04:52 PM
I'm trying to figure out exactly what it is, but the hit to miss rate for me isn't great ... Maybe it's a combination of factors, but ... it's read more out of habit, in the same way I read it in the 90s.
Nothing's awful, but nothing's exceptional. For me, that's due to the loss of Ewing and Williams, creators with distinctive voices, willing to experiment with form.
Many recent strips are adjuncts to familiar stories. Rooting a strip in the work of other authors or established genres is a legitimate approach, but it's not going to feel new.
Heartfelt literalism is fine*, but the hero-villains of
The Two Torquemadas,
Big Dave, and
Zombo gleefully declaimed views antithetical to those of their authors in a way that was fun for the reader.
Using the same old stories and characters to say the same thing as everyone else takes us back to the stultifying conformity of the days when every villainous Hun died with Himmel on his lips.
* In the last few weeks, Brink, Deadworld, Grey Area, and Scarlet Traces all earnestly depicted downtrodden migrants saving or aiding their persecutors. I share the world view Tom Eglinton expressed in Sons Of Booth, but dramatising my opinions and feeding them back to me felt like The Human Caterpillar.
For me one of the strengths of the tooth has always been that even at its worst it is still head and shoulders above the rest. I normally find at least one story that doesn't fully engage me. I still find it far better value for money than other titles. The cost of America titles has finally hit the point where I consider it prohibitive. Especially since the engagement level is depreciating as well. It's not even possible to justify continuing reading on the grounds that they might appreciate in value. Digital seems to have pretty effectively killed that off, not that it was ever a big issue. I guess I can understand where this thread is coming from in that regard.
Interesting point on the depreciation. I have been dismayed by seeing massive collections sell for next to nothing. To free up space, I imagine one day I will just be giving my entire collection away for nothing to anyone who's willing to come around and pick it up.
Ha ha, I think this thread is slowly convincing me to stop the subscription and get rid. Just keep my trades, which is a thought I've had for a while now.
The only reason I'm really continuing at the moment is the prospect of another meaningful run of Wagner dredd or a " next prog : strontium dog". Also, I have this overwhelming feeling that if I do stop then at some future point I will regret the decision. Curses.
I've never been a collector - and I don't pick up much outside 2000AD, last thing was the Metabarons hardbacks, and I still haven't read them either.
I've shifted some of my stuff to digital to save space, but I'm not even sure why - it's so rare that I'll re-read things or even re-watch blu-rays that they're just filling a space on the shelf.
I'm definitely feeling what Banners is as well, and sorely missing Al being in the prog.
I always think it is a real shame when long term readers feel like they want to give the Prog up. It's like a body blow to 2000AD. But if it no longer appeals, then it no longer appeals. I'm not going to convince you by saying stuff like " I like Brink, I like Kingmaker, I like Grey Area etc".
I do think the point about too many strips by the same writer is valid and that it would be better to concentrate on one before moving onto the next. The days of long runs of a story seem to be over. It's all ten parts and then wait a year or two for the next ten parts. We also don't get complete, done in 26 consecutive parts like Meltdown Man anymore either.
I also think it is valid that we need characters that can just be dropped into a standalone tale that isn't part of a multi book arc. But surely they do exist -it's just that it doesn't feel like it. e.g. Stront, Sinister Dexter and the Grey Area team could all be used like that. ( Dante keeps being mentioned as an example, but let's not forget there was an overall arc there as well, it was just that you could dip into any given story and understand it: he's a rogue, what more do you need to know, or he's cut his hair and suddenly gone all serious.)
If everyone gave up the Prog and just bought the trades, then there would be no more trades ( unless Rebellion changes their business model I guess). What I mean is, would it be worth their while publishing original material as trades without the weekly existing? Is there a large enough market for that?
Perhaps with a lot of competing media, it's inevitable that comics suffer a downturn in its audience. I must admit I've been missing a few trips to the Newsagent to buy Twoothy and the Newsagent even remarked upon my absences a couple of times. There's not been anything lately that particularly 'grabs' me or compels me to buy my dose of thrill power it's more habit now than anything. I think it's difficult to maintain the quality over such a long time, and creators get better offers from the Concept Art, Film and TV industries. Understandably they follow the money, so if we are are in a twoothy mid-life doldrum it's because of 2000AD's success rather than its failure.
I am enjoying the prog at the moment and look forward to it dropping through the letterbox, but it has suffered from having too many long-running stories recently. More unexpected one or two-parters would provide welcome novelty.
I think it's likely not the progs fault at all......in my case it's probably just me.
Dredd and Alpha have always been the backbone of 2000ad for me, along with the support of Rogue and Nemesis (in those heady days).
Since the end of Day of Chaos I just can't invest in the Dredd strip.....not sure why, it's just all felt inconsequential, like it's treading water. Alpha has been reinvigorated with the resurrection, but it's not been further developed.
I've grown detached from it, and I'm sure that the quality of the strips have been high in the last couple of years.....but they just haven't appealed to me. A lot of the art styles really haven't appealed to me either and I don't think that has helped. I used to enjoy grey area, but Mark Harrisons artwork on that strip just killed it for me completely (just a personal preference).
Anyway, enough complaining from me, think I just need to revel in my nostalgia and stick to older tooth. Leave the new stuff to those crazy kids.
I should add that I'm still absolutely reading comics - they're one of life's big pleasures - and 80% or more of what I read is still Tooth stuff. Just not feeling the 'need' to keep up on a weekly basis.
I've never really considered dropping 2000 AD, and wouldn't think about it now. It's rare I don't read it on the day it shows up, and while other mags languish, the Prog never does.
I can see what some people are saying about various issues with the mag itself (personally, I'm not sure Judge Dredd every fully recovered from Chaos Day, which in hindsight seems too destructive, and I'm for the first time in years also skipping one story entirely now), but it's still capable of surprise, and remains an interesting read. I can't imagine going digital either, unless Rebellion stopped printing the Prog. The sheer number of digital comics I own (and have bought, note, not just downloaded from the dodgy web) but have never read is not funny.
The Meg's the one I wobble on from time to time, not least during that bit when we got a slew of Sin/Dex stuff in one block. But I'm broadly enjoying that too again now, even if I sometimes forget what was happening a month ago when I last read part of a story! (Getting old...)
Just to clarify, I'm definitely not considering giving up on the progs - I only got back on board after a 17-year absence with prog 2016, so I think it's a little early for me to come to conclusions about the state of the comic. And I appreciate it must be hellishly difficult for the editorial team, having to cater for all sorts of different tastes. I would just prefer there to be a few more 'impactive' stories, and not quite so many slow burners.
The Adventurer mate i too sorely miss Dante, and the recent 40th anniversary made me long for his return. Does anyone know if the writers have ruled out his return?
I think they've talked about doing something in that world.
Steve Green this would be fantastic. Been sorting out my progs recently having just caught up to date with current issues and I plan to re-read whole Dante saga from the start over the summer.
A can of worms, but points have been raised that I've been pondering over for some time.
Not sure if my general apathy towards all comics for the last few years is a result of what comics have become, or if it's just me growing out of them. I've mentioned that in the past round here. Well, it's a combination of all the above plus to a great extent too much other stuff sapping my time, enthusiasm and energy.
I just don't have the mental energy to invest in what seem to be long story arcs and world building. The Dredd format of mainly short self contained stories is what works best for me.
Often I just lose interest and fall behind, thinking I need to go back to the beginning and start again. Or I miss a prog and feel it's pointless reading on until I get a missing back issue. With Dredd I can start again at the beginning of the next story arc. Impossible with some of the other stories. I get the feeling more and more that I'm reading graphic novels broken up into parts, rather than stories written to work in a weekly format. But old style two or three parter stories perhaps won't make the best graphic novels.
Coincidentally, yesterday I was looking on Barney to see when the first episode of Brink appeared to start reading the series from the beginning, in an effort to catch up. So yesterday I read the first episode in full and my plan is to read all of that and then go back and do the same with other stories I haven't read such as The Order and Kingmaker. Not a case of missing progs, just apathy on my part and initial episodes that just didn't grab my increasingly shortening attention span.
I often think it must be incredibly difficult for a casual reader to dip into the prog.
I stopped buying the prog a couple of years ago myself, had been reading it every week since 1995. A few missed weeks turned into a few missed months and before I knew it, it had fallen off my radar.
Had a leaf through a copy recently and really regret it now as I've completely missed Deadworld, looked really excellent.
Problem now is that if I want to start collecting it again, the competionist in me will need to hunt for all my missed progs in the last two years. :D
Surely that's half the fun!
I once had to catch up on two years worth of Progs (2009-2010). Thank god for a big Rebellion sale at the time that helped me fill in the gap for only a couple of hundred bucks (mostly overseas shipping, and exchange rate). It was mostly satisfying to finally have that gap filled.
Maybe you're all just getting old and jaded. You've seen it all before, and it no longer has the appeal it once held for you. I don't think it's the comic itself (as some of you have said already). But I think it's a bit sad that some are saying that the solution is to just bring back Dante. That series was conceived all along as a finite storyline with a definite end. I'm all for seeing spin-off stories with new characters set in the same world, but I'm not interested in seeing The New Adventures of Nikolai Dante, or Young Dante when he was a kid or some such. Not only would it undermine the original series, but one of 2000AD's strengths is that it doesn't always just churn out the same old stuff like it's predecessors did, it tries to be innovative, and even if not all new stories are successful, enough of them work to keep the publication going forward. Dante himself, when he first appeared, is a fine example of that, but that was in 1997. Going back to a character who is now 20 years old isn't the way to keep up the momentum.
As someone else said earlier, in a five story anthology there is usually one I don't like. But I usually like the rest of them, and that's the strength of an anthology: the variety. And sometimes exposure to something I don't immediately take a liking to broadens my mind and I end up liking it eventually. I didn't like Dante when he first appeared, but The Great Game changed my opinion, and when it went back and re-read the earlier stories I found I liked them too. Recently we've had Hope... For the Future, which is a great series, and Counterfeit Girl, which was daft but good fun, and Hunted, a twist on a long-established series, told from the point of view of the arch-villain of the stories. I'd rather Tharg kept doing this.
I have absolutely no interest in digital comics, and if the paper prog stops then so will I.
The criticism I do agree with is this one by norton canes:
QuoteFor me 2000 AD has always been about classic characters who can be plunged into a succession of adventures, not epic-length serials.
There have been too many ten-episodes-at-a-time sprawling epics lately, and I'd rather see characters appear in stories with definite endings and then new stories. Strontium Dog does this very well.
Obviously Dredd is always at it's best when JW writes it, but I don't agree that stories by others are not worth buying the prog for. Michael Carroll is establishing himself as a worthy Dredd writer, as did Al Ewing before him. And even if you're a die-hard, only-Wagner-will-do type, then there is still the new Mechanismo storyline coming up in the prog (which I feel certain will be different to the original), and Dominion in the meg. There's still plenty to hang around for. If you've outgrown it then that's fine, it's just one of those things. I'm not judging. But it would be a mistake for Tharg to try to bring back the 1980s just to appease some middle-aged readers.
So its not just me.These past few weeks I find myself skipping 3 out of 5 stories.Idk,unless something changes in the next 1 or 2 progs,I might be taking a break for the first time in 15 years.
I would just add to that Richard that, realistically, middle aged readers ARE the readership.
I might be wrong, but I suspect that it is a small minority of readers who aren't at least middle aged. Ignore your market at your own peril!
I want the prog to be inventive, but being inventive at the cost of your readership isn't good business sense.
I'm not suggesting that this is what is happening, but wanted to make the point.
Quote from: Smith on 05 July, 2017, 06:51:23 PM
So its not just me.These past few weeks I find myself skipping 3 out of 5 stories.Idk,unless something changes in the next 1 or 2 progs,I might be taking a break for the first time in 15 years.
For the first time in 37 years, I'm skipping 5 out of 5 stories.....but do intend to go back and read hunted.
This thread has me more than a bit perplexed.
I kinda agree with Steve - there's loads I've not been reading for a while:
Defoe (never been my thing),
The Order (loved the first series, couldn't get with the 2nd series onwards),
Hope (Nope),
Hunted (not clicking with me 2nd time round, for some odd reason)
Savage (again, never been my thang)
Kingmaker (read the first episode only, mean to finish it but.. just haven't)... the list goes on.
I'm not even clicking with Brink this time round, and I was adoring the first series.
I keep telling myself I'm saving them to read in one go, but never get round to reading them :|
Not even been keeping up with the last couple of Megs, which are on the read pile.
Doesn't help that my favorite read of the year so far has been the Complete Luke Kirby. I think the idea that this marvelous story will never be continued has soured my attitude to the prog a little bit (which is silly and unjustified, but there you go).
Maybe it is the state of the world, I dunno.
That said, I also agree completely with Richard.
Tharg is still on a roll, it's definately not anything to do with the quality of the Prog. It's just an unfortunate run of thrills that don't hit my personal mark. I'm confident that we'll get an unexpected thrill soon enough that reignites the Prog-love. Zombo's coming back for another series, right?
I also have no plans to rethink my subscription. (Admittedly, it's only a month since it renewed, but still..)
And yes, I think I am just feeling a bit old and jaded too!
Sorry, I've added nothing to the argument!
Well,the triefecta of Brink,Defoe,Grey Area is certanly killing my interest.
It's gotta come down to taste, because Brink and Grey Area are highlights right now. Brink is the kind of high concept sci-fi their's never enough of in the Prog. Like something I'd read in a sci-fi prose magazine. And Grey Area, Abnett is doing his thing, and I've finally jelled with Harrison's loose digital style.
Black humour has always been one of the main attractions to me of 2000ad. This was especially found in Dredd and the outrageous inventiveness of the citizens and the city.
As someone said up-thread, the sheer destructiveness and horror of Chaos Day and the subdued, almost broken, response of the city (especially Dredd himself) does seem to have sucked some of the vitality out for the strip. The Trifecta story was pretty damn good though.
I still feel excited when 2AD/Meg drops on the door matt though and I won't be cancelling my sub. A lot of that is seeing the covers though I think.
There's also a good deal of nostalgia about 2000ad and you'll never quite get the thrill of your young days. I fell away from the prog in the 90s and found it again a few years ago so I suppose I've got a few more years for thrill power fatigue to set in...
This is really turned into an interesting, no fascinatating thread. Loads of people off loading why the Prog isn't working for them at the moment, while I've been naively thinking all is rosy post the 40th. This might also explain why the Prog thread has been so quiet of late.
While I personally don't see the problem its hard to deny that given the variety of reasons an insights as to a problem something is amiss for some in our little microcosm. One reason that seems to run through is the nature of the stories shifting towards ongoing long form (10-15) part stories 'made for trade'. I've no idea if this is a deliberate editorial thing, or just the way current writers are tuned into writing these days. The thing is its not a new thing. It been around for years now and its certainly not a 2000ad thing. I do miss some of the variety in story lenght BUT 2000ad still caters for that, or has done so much more than most comics.
3rillers have been fun and in this weeks Prog thread I myself have bemoaned the fact that Grey Areas seems to have taken Sinister Dexter's slot (I enjoy both) as short story to fill gaps (mind I moaned when S&D was used for that purpose, no pleasing me!) and we still have a steady stream of one shots... still there's no denying this variety in format is greatly reduced.
The truth is though this seems to be the way things are going in the medium as a whole. As I say I've no way of knowing the reason, mandate or preference, but I guess the economic realities make it a necessity. If the stories in the comic can be repackaged to create a secondary income stream as trades down the road that probably makes it a requirement on some level? That said for me 2000ad still effortlessly creates that second source of variety the tones and looks of the stories still make this the best read out there... while of course is the least interesting thing to be said on a thread which is fascinatating because of the negativity (not a bad think if its there) in reflecting on the prog.
Oh and one other thing before I stop whittering Supersurfer knows I love him BUT you can't grow out of comics anymore surely, in the same way you can't grow out of film, or telly or books. You're just not finding the stuff that fills your current needs. There's comics out there for all tastes. Its not the medium that's the issue, its the bits of the medium you find and access.
Ye're all intelligent blokes whose opinions I often share and always respect, but I'm not seeing it myself.
My only real problem with the prog at the moment is Dredd, which is well-served by a skilled group of writers, but still feels like it's alternately treading water and being pulled in too many directions. Despite a bit of a worry about the sameiness of Edginton plots (ensemble of allied characters assembles around driven protagonist as they progress through different environments hunting/being hunted) I've been really enjoying the prog of late. Almost all the new strips work for me, some lie Deadworld, The Orde, Hunted and Brink are new faves. Can't say I wouldn't love to see more Ewing in any form, or a new potboiler from R Morrison, but basically the non-Dredd material is ringin' my receptors.
Quote from: TordelBack on 05 July, 2017, 10:57:00 PM
Ye're all intelligent blokes whose opinions I often share and always respect, but I'm not seeing it myself.
My only real problem with the prog at the moment is Dredd, which is well-served by a skilled group of writers, but still feels like it's alternately treading water and being pulled in too many directions. Despite a bit of a worry about the sameiness of Edginton plots (ensemble of allied characters assembles around driven protagonist as they progress through different environments hunting/being hunted) I've been really enjoying the prog of late. Almost all the new strips work for me, some lie Deadworld, The Orde, Hunted and Brink are new faves. Can't say I wouldn't love to see more Ewing in any form, or a new potboiler from R Morrison, but basically the non-Dredd material is ringin' my receptors.
This is terrible news! This means that perhaps it is me and not the prog.
This means that my bitter, depressed and jaded thoughts aren't going to be cured by cancelling my subscription. Back to the pills I guess.....
I was actually getting into Hope. It suddenly just stopping mid stride made me pretty frustrated. Why would you kill your new series momentum like that?
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 05 July, 2017, 09:07:46 PM
Oh and one other thing before I stop whittering Supersurfer knows I love him BUT you can't grow out of comics anymore surely, in the same way you can't grow out of film, or telly or books. You're just not finding the stuff that fills your current needs. There's comics out there for all tastes. Its not the medium that's the issue, its the bits of the medium you find and access.
You're right Colin YNWA – one can't grow out of comics as a medium. But when I pop into a comic shop and walk out empty handed, I can't help thinking "I'm just not interested" and often can't shake off the niggling thought "is it that I'm just too old for all that?"
I've often thought that in some ways, 2000AD ruined comics reading for me. It was so much better than everything else and I couldn't get the kind of buzz elsewhere that I would get out of the prog. Short stories in particular (ok, those are quite rare in non-2k mainstream comics) never seem to hit the spot as I always expect a Future Shock (or EC Comics) type ending.
No plan here to stop buying the prog, though I must get through the one foot tall partially read 2000AD stack that is sitting next to me as well as many other progs on my shelves.
Old and jaded? For sure. I have other interests now. Such as gardening. But worry not, folks, I'm not ready to be put out to pasture.
BTW Colin – the feeling's mutual.
Great thread...
Very curious to hear so many sharing the wobbles. When the prog has enough top creators it's common to hear people in the review thread proclaim '4/5' and '5/5!'. I never feel progs are completely great but on rare occasions they do come close.
I've come to realise that when I start wobblong myself, it's basically me and not the prog. Life's a scunner much of the time and it'll suck the enjoyment out of any prog. If you pay more attention to the World than I do, suckier still. If it catches me in the right mood, the prog's a wonderful thing.
Right now - having gone digital a while ago - I've 4 progs and 2 megs waiting for me. Which is fine. The pull list has been dropped entirely apart from prog/meg. Some are/were fantastic. Can't read 'em all, though.
I find it interesting that the prog dosent feature their 'heavy hitters' more often - if they ran Dredd in every prog with a rotation of Strontium Dog, Rogue Trooper and ABC Warriors, and mixed in one new title occasionally this would make sense to me. The way it is now would be comparable to if Marvel published Spiderman monthly, but only published the Avengers and X-Men a couple times a year. Why not keep the most popular characters in the mag?
I don't read the prog/Meg regularly so cant have much of an opinion (I wait for the trades) but I really enjoy some of the new stuff like Kingdom and will be reading Lawless soon.
I assume the plan is to limp like this till #2050,which will be a jumping on point and a return of some classic thrills?
Brink and DeFoe are very near their end. So we're going to get a refresh pretty soon.
Just going back through some resent Thrills of the Future...
Beeby's Anderson Psi-Division will probably replace one of the two.
Absalom got teased back in Prog 2031, hopefully that's the other one (though that means double Rennie, with Hunted going for indeterminate amount of time).
Grey Suit return also teased.
Hope will be back in 2044. So that will probably last until 2050.
I suspect the next line-up will be Dredd, Anderson, Grey Suit, Grey Area/Future Shocks/3rillers, and Hunted. With Hope replacing Hunted when it ends. Going into 2050 in September. And Absalom launching in 2050. With other stuff (seems about right for the annual Strontium Dog appearance. Brass Sun? Wishful thinking?)
Quote from: The Adventurer on 06 July, 2017, 06:04:00 AM
I suspect the next line-up will be Dredd, Anderson, Grey Suit, Grey Area/Future Shocks/3rillers, and Hunted. With Hope replacing Hunted when it ends. Going into 2050 in September. And Absalom launching in 2050. With other stuff (seems about right for the annual Strontium Dog appearance. Brass Sun? Wishful thinking?)
One of the confirmed return-ees for 2050 is Indigo Prime.
Just got back into 2th yesterday after a progless absence of a year
interesting to see defoe done by a different artist
Dredd - still 'knocking it out of the park'
Luuuuv Grey area [not collected 'til jan 2018!]
Brink & t'others don't bother reading
Feel i have a renewed excitement & interest post break
J
The Prog always has ups and downs but the anthology format means there's always something to keep me going. Since I stuck it out through the 90s the current level of quality certainly doesn't make me feel like I'm just buying out of habit these days. I love Brink to bits and would happily buy the Prog on the strength of that alone, to be honest. Add in Scarlet Traces, Kingdom, Kingmaker, Brass Sun, Defoe, Deadworld, The Order (and on and on) and I'm certainly not giving up on the Prog any time soon.
The future prospect of a Brendan McCarthy radback-set Chopper story doesn't hurt, either.
Quote from: ming on 06 July, 2017, 11:07:57 AM
The future prospect of a Brendan McCarthy radback-set Chopper story doesn't hurt, either.
Another reason to wear shades indoors.
Quote from: ming on 06 July, 2017, 11:07:57 AM
I love Brink to bits and would happily buy the Prog on the strength of that alone, to be honest. Add in Scarlet Traces, Kingdom, Kingmaker, Brass Sun, Defoe, Deadworld, The Order (and on and on)
It's horse for courses I guess as, with the exception of Deadworld, that reads like a list of everything that's turning me off at this point. From a personal point of view, I would like all of those stories to disappear.
There is nothing at all to hook me in right now, not a single strip. That hasnt been the case since the non-Wagner 90's. Usually Dredd would warrant a read but the last couple of years have only built an increasing apathy towards that strip too.
I'm struggling! Hopefully something that really floats my boat will come along shortly......with the exception of Deadworld that hasn't happened in the past year or so.
It's Lawless that keeps me reading the Megazine, nowt in tooth.
Think it is a growing apathy I have towards comics in general as someone mentioned earlier in the thread. I too walk in and out of comic shops and think "meh". I'm sad about that. I spend more time looking at the hot toys than I do the comics now.
I really feel the loss of Al Ewing. I've been reading the prog long enough that I'm largely set in my ways - it's mostly Pat Mills that keeps me sticking around, especially as the gaps between Wagner tales grows longer and longer - but Ewing was a writer that really stood out (and was still improving rapidly when he left).
It's not that the current crop of droids aren't quality writers, but the prog for mine seems to be lacking a certain kind of manic energy that *is* 2000AD for me. Slow burn tales and long-winded plots are fine (see my liking for most of Mills' current output), but a prog without a fairly straightforward story that's still throwing crazy ideas to the wall doesn't seem quite right.
I think that's probably why I enjoyed the recent run of Deadworld a lot - the core survival story was good solid stuff, but each week there was usually some surprise new twist on the Dark Judges / Deadworld that gave it a spark I wasn't always seeing in the other stories.
Prog's good for me.
Dredd stories are enjoyable - we've been spoilt recently with major Dredd storylines, so I guess at the moment it's in a bit of a quiet spot until it ramps up again with the next major event.
Defoe is OK, but I'm enjoying the art.
Brink I love, and will be sad to see it end.
Really enjoying the return of Grey Area, and liking the fact that it seems to be standalone stories at the moment, although there's things happening in the background that hint of a larger story to come...
Hunted is a fun action story, and I'm looking forward to seeing where it goes.
I do agree that series with multiple shorter stories would be nice to see again. Dredd and Grey Area are filling in those spots currently, but recently there have just been a lot of ongoing 13-part stories.
Quote from: Pyroxian on 06 July, 2017, 11:53:29 AM
I do agree that series with multiple shorter stories would be nice to see again. Dredd and Grey Area are filling in those spots currently, but recently there have just been a lot of ongoing 13-part stories.
I absolutely get the thinking with the long-form epics, though - much easier to repackage for collections later, and probably so much easier from a scheduling/editorial point of view! It's just that they're not quite so much fun on a week-by-week basis than shorter runs.
Quote from: Dark Jimbo on 06 July, 2017, 09:33:57 AM
Quote from: The Adventurer on 06 July, 2017, 06:04:00 AM
I suspect the next line-up will be Dredd, Anderson, Grey Suit, Grey Area/Future Shocks/3rillers, and Hunted. With Hope replacing Hunted when it ends. Going into 2050 in September. And Absalom launching in 2050. With other stuff (seems about right for the annual Strontium Dog appearance. Brass Sun? Wishful thinking?)
One of the confirmed return-ees for 2050 is Indigo Prime.
Is that Prog 2050 or the year 2050? Given John Smith's legendary writing speed.
:lol:
I think it's only about 10% the prog. :lol:
No, in my case, I posted here several years ago that my interest was waning and the main cause, then, of my thrill-circuits depleting was this endless series of 40-episode stories that take five years or more to tell. I wish that when a creator pitched a series and Tharg accepted it, they'd work out how many episodes/stories this idea had. Is this a Dante with hundreds of episodes before a grand finale, something open-ended with new characters like Sin Dex or Slaine, or something that's got a finite end after four 10-week stories.
Just about everything Tharg has commissioned for years has been the latter, and there's nothing wrong with that. I just wish that instead of scheduling 40 episodes as ten weeks on, fifty weeks off, ten weeks on, just make it a 40-week run. By the time something like Outlier or The Order comes back, I have forgotten the previous stuff.
Absalom? There should be a couple of hundred episodes of that by now. If this forthcoming story is his final appearance, it should have run three or four years ago.
The other 90% is probably me.
I haven't talked about this much, but I've suffered for years with major depression, and the last three-ish years have been worse and worse for me. I'm very happy to receive 2000 AD each week. It's one of the things that brings a little smile and a nice break, but for many years I've been reading each five-page episode almost in isolation from even the others in the present story, never mind the series as a whole. I'm just not able to focus like I was. Consequently, I probably enjoy Brink less than anybody else. I can certainly imagine that being far more interesting in big, satisfying chunks.
I'm sure the hellish state of world politics, as mentioned earlier, has a lot to do with it. One hammer-blow after another in my life over the last few years has a lot more. 2000 AD used to be one of about twenty things that really excited me, now I'm down to pretty much two: watching old TV with my son and hiking. We moved to Tennessee for a change and a great job opportunity for my wife which did not pan out. It's been a gigantic clusterfuck, basically, and I've been out of full-time work for more than a year. Maybe if things turn around, and maybe if the government doesn't ruin my health care and triple my cost for therapy, I'll start to love 2000 AD again.
I'm glad that Indigo Prime is coming back. I'm looking forward to that, but at the same time it's tempered with the sad reality that it will only be for about eight weeks, and then there will probably be another three-year break before we see another story. I wish it was alongside Dredd in every issue for about nine months every year. That would really charge my circuits again.
Quote from: Grant Goggans on 06 July, 2017, 10:49:14 PM
Just about everything Tharg has commissioned for years has been the latter, and there's nothing wrong with that. I just wish that instead of scheduling 40 episodes as ten weeks on, fifty weeks off, ten weeks on, just make it a 40-week run. By the time something like Outlier or The Order comes back, I have forgotten the previous stuff.
I think that's what makes these longer-form stories so problematic (for want of a better word) - the fact they keep going AWOL for years at a time!*
*Edginton, I'm looking mainly at you!
Good insights as always GG, and sorry to hear of your woes: as you surely know you're far from alone here in the general shape of your situation, not that that helps you much. 2000AD has long been a weekly lifeline that I have clung to through dark periods, counting the days til it hits the shelf as the one little guaranteed glimmer of light, 15 or 20 minutes when I can forget everything and myself too. Which seems ridiculous when it's a just a few pages of ugly people shooting each other while using made-up swears, but there you go.
I think the notion of a second 'resident' strip alongside Dredd for 6 months or more at a stretch remains a really good one. You would imagine that the 'stockpiling' situation should be easier now than it was at points in the past.
It's been tried before. In the '90s Tharg tried to keep Rogue Trooper around on a semi-permanent basis. It was a load of shit. You don't need to keep a series around all the time so that the readers can keep track if what's going on if you just have discrete stories with a beginning, a middle and an end over a ten episode span.
Sorry to hear about all your troubles Grant.
Quote from: Dark Jimbo on 06 July, 2017, 11:49:50 PM
*Edginton, I'm looking mainly at you!
I don't know. I'm personally kind of impressed by all those spinning plates.
Quote from: The Adventurer on 07 July, 2017, 02:03:15 AM
Quote from: Dark Jimbo on 06 July, 2017, 11:49:50 PM
*Edginton, I'm looking mainly at you!
I don't know. I'm personally kind of impressed by all those spinning plates.
I think it's more to do with the fact that some of these plates are spinning out of sight for too long; Ampney Crucis being a prime example of this. We haven't seen him in at least four years now, and he was left right in the middle of a story arc.
I always think this:
If 2000ad stopped tomorrow there would be eulogies from all concerned about what a loss it was. And how it was the last man standing. And how it could never be replaced.
I do think it suffers from Creators really having to show good will to work on it (Pat Mills said in his book that many have to alternate 2000ad jobs with better paid ones). Presumably the gaps in story publishing are due to this.
But if we stop subscribing where else are you going to find a weekly with Henry Flint on it? Or Disraeli? Or Phill Winslade pouring his heart out on Lawless (aint no Meg without 2K).
So fortunately/unfortunately we are the custodians of 2000ad based solely on whether we subscribe to it.
I've given up on DC & Marvel but actually 2000ad sits pretty well with a good slice of Image like Saga, Sex Criminals, Astro City (Image published first).
Does every story ring my bell. No. But use it or lose it. £2.75 is a small price to pay to support the British Comics industry.
Heh, it's great playing armchair Tharg, like a nerdier version of Football Manager. I don't envy the Mighty One in real life though!
There's been some great stories in the Prog of late, as others have said, Brink, Deadworld, Scarlet frigging Traces and Grey Area are all fab. As ever, Tordleback has absolutely nailed it in this thread. For me, Dredd has always been the very backbone of the prog; when it's on form, you will find me sat on the doormat on a Saturday morning, bouncing like an excited puppy, waiting for the Prog to flop through my letterbox.
However, since Day of Chaos, there have been only been a handful of Dredds where I've been desperate to read the next part - namely MegaCity Confidential, Harvey, some (but certainly not all) of Titan/Enceladus, Dark Justice, the PJ Maybe resolution and Judge Pin. Those strips have seen virtually my entire week focused on Dredd, elevating the thrill levels of prog's arrival to overload point and boosting (not that they've really needed it) the other strips.
But for some time now, it's felt like a case of too many cooks. The roster of Dredd writers is impressive, and each are adding their own fascinating and exciting aspects to Dredd's world. However, at times, that exactly how it feels - several strong arcs competing and not complementing each other. As a result, consistency in MegaCity One (often cited as the star of the strip) seems to suffer.
At the moment, I genuinely don't know what I should be worrying about - it's it invisible judges in the walls? (I hate this idea by the way.) Sector Zero (virtually the same awful idea.) Texas? Brit Cit? Chaos Day fallout? Enceladus fall out? The Sovs killing a load of ex-judges? Dredd seeing and riding magical black horsies? The Mechanismo Project? Sinfield? Probably a couple of other potentially city destroying problems that I've missed?
Months seem to go by without mention of a major event, then suddenly they're back it's that writer's turn, and sometimes it's hard to be emotionally invested. I realise that gone are the days when you had one very strong writer controlling the tone and direction of the character and the city, but sometimes I genuinely wonder if the rest of the freelance writers are in contact with each other, deciding on a common direction. Is this the right thing to do or would it stifle creativity?
Going back to Steve's original question, would younger me (no family, stressful job, more 'me' time, less weary) be more able to juggle so many Dredd plot threads? Was it a simpler time? We seemed to get big summer epic, a few months of fallout/resolution stories, one offs, next big summer epic...
As I said, I would hate to have Tharg's job, but I really would like to see some stability in MegaCity One, especially as we're heading for a TV series about it.
I love the prog. There's been some absolutely epic stuff in it lately. Brink is just brilliant in style, tone, storytelling etc etc. The Nu Earth Traitor General story is really cool. That Wagner/Ezquerra one-off about the MC-1 scrawl that went viral made me choke on a cuppa I was laughing so much. The Scarlet Traces continuation is fantastically realised. There's probably so much more I could comment on if my aging brain and faulty recall allowed.
It's an absolute joy when it comes through my letterbox each week. I shout 'new comic day!,' which startles the kids every time, as I gleefully rip off the cellophane and put the kettle on so I can put my feet up with a cuppa for a good read.
Long live 2000AD and all who sail in her!
Well at least they'll get a Damage Report out of it.
Quote from: matty_ae on 07 July, 2017, 07:16:12 AM
So fortunately/unfortunately we are the custodians of 2000ad based solely on whether we subscribe to it.
Does every story ring my bell. No. But use it or lose it. £2.75 is a small price to pay to support the British Comics industry.
Im going to be a jerk here,but no.Im not obliged to buy something I don't like.I am a fan(obviously),but I dont owe 2000ad nothing.And if I dont like 60% of a prog,no local patriotism is going to convince me to stick with it.
100% correct.
But if you don't support the weekly, don't moan if it stops.
I think that's the issue though, at this point I don't think I would notice if it was no longer there, other than not having the ongoing problems with finding somewhere to store my unread progs.
I'm holding on by my fingernails to the prog, and that's in the hope of the return of the elements that I miss. But I'm starting to feel like this is it. And if so, then much like Smith, I'm not going to just continue purchasing out of some blind loyalty. I've largely been doing that for the last couple of years. The occasional great story (in my opinion) cannot justify the price tag.
I'm probably the kind of reader at this point that would just be best served by collecting the case files and any future strontium dog trades and just calling it a day. Can't imagine 2000ad really wants a section of its readership to feel that way though?
This thread showcases the problem 2000 AD has as an anthology. There is no typical reader, and appealing to everyone at once is a monumental juggling act. The strip I referred to earlier about skipping was Defoe. I'm just totally done with it. I find it boring, preachy, messy, and dull. But others have cited that as a main reason for continuing with the Prog.
I definitely wouldn't keep buying out of blind loyalty, but then I still bought 2000 AD through its nadir, because there was always something worth reading in the Prog. If it ever gets to the point where that's not the case for any length of time, I'll ditch it, but I can't imagine how that would happen. (Five duff strips out of five, for a period of weeks, assuming Smith's still editing? Unthinkable.)
As for the general notion of support, as someone who's worked in publishing for a long time now, it does feel like everything is circling the drain, from the very largest publications down to everything in the niches. Every lost reader really is a hammer blow. So on that basis, I'd also give 2000 AD more rope than something I don't have the same amount of love for. (Hence 'something worth reading' rather than 60 per cent or whatever.) What comes next, I don't know, but I do wonder if in 30 years people will look at the media that's available and yearn for better days, wishing they'd paid for more stuff.
I still think 2000AD is worth the effort. Highs and lows are inevitable in any industry and as many authors are finding rewards further afield perhaps the star of the British Comic Industry would be less appealing to them. I'll probably always read twoothy since it is the cornerstone of the British Comic Book Industry and like a lot of commentators have mentioned, not everything it does floats my boat or makes me feel the need to buy every issue but so long as the publishers continue to put it out on the Newsagents shelves count me in.
All fair comment chaps. I'm going to bow out of the discussion at this point as feel like I have over-laboured my opinion and im now just coming across as moaning.
For me it is 5 out of 5 that isn't doing anything for me and out of my love for 2000ad I have continued to support both the Meg and tooth with a subscription for the last couple of years without much enjoyment.
But, I very much appreciate that one man's brass is another man's gold, and a lot of the readers will love it all.
As such, I wish for nothing but the continued success of 2000ad, but it's been slowly losing me since John Wagners increasingly long breaks. Think my ongoing love is entwined with that specific writers output at this point.
Cheers
Simon.
QuoteIm not obliged to buy something I don't like.I am a fan(obviously)
Well obviously. ::)
I was illustrating a point there...
I understand not every story is for me,and it doesnt have to be;but when the majority of it isnt for me,it makes me rethink if the whole prog is worth it.Its probably me and not the prog.
Well,what Simon said;I dont really have anything more to say.
I haven't been on here in a while largely reflecting my malaise with the prog. I haven't bought the prog in a few weeks now but I have to say I assumed it was me and am genuinely astounded to read this thread today.
Nothing to add on top of what better informed folk than me have already said. I would like to say though that 2000AD has been brilliant and perhaps set impossible standards for itself.
Some excellent points over the last day. I'm certainly not going to tell someone to buy something they don't like. For me, the key things are:
- Grant is totally right about the scheduling. If the ten weeks then a year's break stories could just run consecutively until done that would solve the "I can't remember what is going" on issue (apart from The Order obviously....). But it is probably too many competing things and lower pay on 2000AD that is causing this.
- the large number Dredd writers isn't a problem but Pete is absolutely right that the lack consequence in one writer's Dredd world to another's is a problem. I think it needs an overall "show runner" to co-ordinate the various threads.
- if too many people opt for only the trades, then Tooth and the Meg will stop and so will the trades, so yes there is an element of needing to support it, even if only 2 strips grab you - or be prepared to lose them too.
- I guess it also depends what else you read. I only read 2000AD and the Meg (and related stuff like IDW) so giving up the Prog means giving up comics altogether. I'm not going to get into anything else at this point, I don't think. If you read multiple titles of which 2000AD is just on, then maybe it's not a big deal.
Personally once I was properly on board I have never even considered stopping. Never crossed my mind. Quite the opposite, I would be very unhappy to miss even a single issue.
The thing Simon said earlier really resonated with me, 2000ad had been so much a part of my creative ambitions for so long I wonder how long one would survive in my life without the other.
The prog has a very difficult balancing act between nostalgia and modernity. Appealing specifically to nostalgia is always going to be tricky because after 40 years that nostalgia casts a wide net. The best way in my opinion to deal with that is a ready supply of collections of classic strips. Nothing new is ever going to of your childhood favourite like a collection of your childhood favourite. Appealing to a modern audience (some of whom may be the same as the old audience) is the only way to keep the weekly going. Appealing to a dwindling core of lifelong fans is not a strategy with infinite millage. The fans who grew up with tooth are starting to push 50, it's only a matter of time before you can add mortality into the list of reasons for core fans drifting away.
It doesn't matter if old buggers like me start to drift off as long as there are younger fans to take my place. 2000ad has to keep changing or it will die.
Quite right. Think Jason Kingsley said pretty much that at the 40th.
It's not that which I have the problem with.
I'd argue that having a good chunk of stories in limbo is not great for anyone, old farts or not.
Does it really make jumping on for new readers any easier if you've got all this baggage?
I find it frustrating that there's whole raft of stories in a holding pattern for years, and we still get new stories popping up. I'm not sure it's particuarly retro to finish the story you've started before starting another one.
If Andy Diggle's memo was a shotglass of rocket fuel, it feels like we've got a whole load of half-finished pints.
Quote from: Steve Green on 07 July, 2017, 02:24:15 PM
It's not that which I have the problem with.
I'd argue that having a good chunk of stories in limbo is not great for anyone, old farts or not.
Does it really make jumping on for new readers any easier if you've got all this baggage?
I find it frustrating that there's whole raft of stories in a holding pattern for years, and we still get new stories popping up. I'm not sure it's particuarly retro to finish the story you've started before starting another one.
If Andy Diggle's memo was a shotglass of rocket fuel, it feels like we've got a whole load of half-finished pints.
That is a problem. One largely created by either creator owned strips or remaining faithful to the original writer.
Either series need each chunk to stand on it's own or, they need to change the writer to keep it going, just like the artist would ne changed to keep a strip going.
Maybe it's unavoidable, I know writers have waited for artists to become available which causes delays, but it's frustrating where there's an instance of two Edginton/Disraeli strips hanging around (one getting on for 4 years) and they start another Scarlet Traces.
Why should a reader invest time in something that's going to be left hanging?
The second series of Brink has also lost me, I was expecting it to kick into gear after the reveal at the end of the first series. Another 16 episodes in and it looks like it [spoiler]It's going to end on another cliffhanger based on the cover previewed[/spoiler].
It may well be that 2000AD reflects the times it's living in. It's not a completely baseless theory looking back over the last forty years. With that in mind, 2000AD has more or less lost me as well, I'm sad to say. I guess there's some merit to a comic that grows up with its audience but its a dangerous game when a comic caters simply to that readership. I don't feel there's a huge effort being made to appeal to a new and, yes, younger audience. (In a hypothetically perfect incarnation, 2000AD should cater to both new and established audiences.)
I feel no vitality from the comic when I read it these days. Dredd feels stuck in mud, the likes of Brass Sun and Brink leave me cold. Deadworld has been the absolute highlight for me lately. ABC Warriors/Ro-Busters more or less hit the right buttons although I feel they're more plugging in gaps than going anywhere new. Lawless in the Meg is fantastic.
I know based on us all being different ages we probably all have a golden period we hark back to and I won't do that here but I do wish the comic had just a smidgen of the unpredictable punk rock energy I always associate with it.
Anyway.
Quote from: Pete Wells on 07 July, 2017, 07:46:24 AM
But for some time now, it's felt like a case of too many cooks. The roster of Dredd writers is impressive, and each are adding their own fascinating and exciting aspects to Dredd's world. However, at times, that exactly how it feels - several strong arcs competing and not complementing each other. As a result, consistency in MegaCity One (often cited as the star of the strip) seems to suffer.
At the moment, I genuinely don't know what I should be worrying about - it's it invisible judges in the walls? (I hate this idea by the way.) Sector Zero (virtually the same awful idea.) Texas? Brit Cit? Chaos Day fallout? Enceladus fall out? The Sovs killing a load of ex-judges? Dredd seeing and riding magical black horsies? The Mechanismo Project? Sinfield? Probably a couple of other potentially city destroying problems that I've missed?
Months seem to go by without mention of a major event, then suddenly they're back it's that writer's turn, and sometimes it's hard to be emotionally invested. I realise that gone are the days when you had one very strong writer controlling the tone and direction of the character and the city, but sometimes I genuinely wonder if the rest of the freelance writers are in contact with each other, deciding on a common direction. Is this the right thing to do or would it stifle creativity?
^Post of the Year^
Quote from: Steve Green on 07 July, 2017, 02:24:15 PM
I find it frustrating that there's whole raft of stories in a holding pattern for years, and we still get new stories popping up. I'm not sure it's particuarly retro to finish the story you've started before starting another one.
If Andy Diggle's memo was a shotglass of rocket fuel, it feels like we've got a whole load of half-finished pints.
.
.
Maybe it's unavoidable, I know writers have waited for artists to become available which causes delays, but it's frustrating where there's an instance of two Edginton/Disraeli strips hanging around (one getting on for 4 years) and they start another Scarlet Traces.
Why should a reader invest time in something that's going to be left hanging?
^2nd place Post of the Year^
I think these are the problems with the prog right here.
Would love to know if the hanging Edgington stories are due to commissioning problems, scheduling problems, or something else.
Has anyone managed to ask the Edgington droid at a con?
I haven't read more than the first and last (sixth) pages of this thread so forgive me if I go over ground already covered by other Squaxx, but here goes my two galactic groats...
I have an annual combi subscription, which I've just renewed early without hesitation. Although I've been buying the Prog every week (bar mishaps) since before Prog 300 (by my reckoning) I've blown hot and cold on the Meg depending on the volume of reprint material. Lawless was the strip that brought me back into that fold.
In any given week I don't read the Prog cover to cover. I typically skim/skip the Nerve Centre (sometime remember to check out the Damage Report), usually read Dredd and then read/skim/skip the other four(?) strips depending on what they are. It's one of the reasons I generally don't contribute to the weekly prog review thread (I don't necessarily feel I've properly read the issue).
Based on the current line-up I skip Brink (read the first couple of chapters but wasn't gripped and all the pages look the same so nothing jumps out and grabs me as I turn the pages); Defoe I skim to keep track of what's happening each week. I miss Leigh Gallagher's scratchy artwork, which somehow fitted the milieu and think Colin MacNeil's art feels too 'polished' in comparison. It's great but just feels too 'clean' somehow. I read Grey Area as it's a series I've come to love (in the same way as Deadworld) once I sat down and took the trouble to read it properly. The characters (Bulliet, Birdy, Bitch) are are great and while I never got on with Mark Harrison art in Durham Red it's really working for me with GA. Finally, Hunted is another skim for me. Kind of bored with the Traitor General as a character/concept tbh and would rather have more Jaegir but I realise Simon Coleby is working on Ian Livingstone's Freeway Fighter comic currently.
So, that's two definite reads (Dredd/Grey Area), two skims with possible re-reads later when complete (Defoe/Hunted) and one miss (Brink). Obviously I'd prefer to have five thrill-packed 'must-reads' every week but that's not a bad ratio. But, of course, it's not like that every week; sometimes it's better, sometimes it's worse but never so bad that I get to the point of not finding something I've enjoyed.
I agree with the argument (assuming it's been made above) that Tharg should be stricter with writers submitting new serials while leaving old ones unfinished. Either they should hand them over to other people to continue if they've lost interest in them or they should bloody well complete them before starting work on another part of their personal multiverse, which will also (most likely) be left unfinished/hanging when the next shift in their mental gears kicks in.
That last paragraph does seem to succinctly summarise the consensus emerging in this thread.
I've been reading since the year 2000 (dropped off the radar years earlier and came back then) and always said to myself 'As long as I enjoy 3 out of 5, I'll keep going".
What some love (Deadworld, ABC, Slaine) totally leave me cold and what I love (Brink, Scarlet Traces) others poopooh, but surely that's just the way of an anthology.
I do think one offs should be mixed up with three-parters, ten-parters and epics just to keep the mix different. Jumping on points are all well and good but sometimes stories just seem to brake, then leave, leaving a frustrated taste.
2000AD is one of the few comics I buy regularly and will continue to do so as American comics just feel bloated in their storytelling each issue - like those six parters Doctor Who used to have in the 70s. SO much filler when you want them to get on with it!
I too would prefer new series start with a self-contained outing, and while I am fine with regular series that introduce new supervillains every now and then, I'm not crazy about dedicating entire stories to doing so that essentially boil the strip down to an extended trailer for the character's return. I feel that's a path that's been well-trod in the prog by now.
In fact, my only real gripe would be that I'd like to see a bit less "BOOK 2 coming soon" endings in general, or at least have endings to series that felt like actual endings, or at least tie together some plot or character arcs, or callback to the start of the story or something. Often it feels like some stories are ending because of some unforseen behind the scenes drama.
Quote from: Steven Denton on 07 July, 2017, 03:05:11 PM
Quote from: Steve Green on 07 July, 2017, 02:24:15 PM
I'd argue that having a good chunk of stories in limbo is not great for anyone ... finish the story you've started before starting another one.
... they need to change the writer to keep it going, just like the artist would be changed to keep a strip going.
To the best of my knowledge, Tharg has never
'changed' kicked an artist* off a strip they created and wanted to work on.
US comic publishers flip creators like Rihanna changes wigs, but the few times that works out are vastly outnumbered by the majority of titles that spiral for years/decades - and Tharg has a
terrible track record of turning strips into Ford production lines**.
In the case of the many balls Edginton has in the air, he told the Thrillcast that Tharg's already bid him concentrate on existing projects***, rather than pitching new ones.
* Or a writer. Canon Fodder was more a case of Millar quitting than being fired. Gerry Finley-Day was definitely dumped, but neither The Hit nor The Golden Fox Rebellion yield much evidence that Siegel & Shustering creators works out well.
** Durham Red's the best example anyone can produce, but the first thing Abnett did when he took over was put 3000 years between bounty hunting, Johnny Alpha, and anything else that tied him to his predecessors. Mark Harrison's Red looks bugger all like Carlos's, so the creators might as well have created a new strip, VAMPGINA: anaemic space empress of the future.
*** Firing Edginton isn't a mistake Tharg would make; Matt Brooker would never sell out his friend, and nobody wants to read Leah Moore and Tom Foster's Stickleback. Reader entitlement is all very well, but I'm sort of proud Tharg doesn't treat creators like sweated labour.
Just my penneth worth in case Tharg is reading. I'm repeating other people but want to express myself. I am often left without any resolution in the ongoing stories- the multi book type. I need a beginning, middle and end but even the end of ten or so episode runs I am frequently left unsatisfied, I know you can't keep having conclusions but having so many series hanging at once is exhausting and ends up leaving me almost a little bleak at times. I can't remember what's going on.
I'm a big believer in the nature of the anthology meaning that there's always gonna be something I'm not fussed about: 'twas ever thus, even in the glory days of the eighties - cast your mind back, there were always things you didn't really like, but you were a kid, and so, had much more time on your hands to read them all. There wasn't the quick hit culture we have now, where new things are SCREAMING for you to read them on your phone, and you wouldn't rest until you'd read the prog cover to cover, many times, absorbing EVERYTHING. Hell, Ace Garp used to irritate the shit outta me, but I could still tell you more about what happened in it thirty years ago than what I watched on Netflix last night.
So are we all comparing the prog of now to our Glory Days nostalgia? Maybe. But there are some great points raised here. One of my favourite ongoing stories in the prog is Kingdom, for instance. Dammit, I LOVE Gene the Hackman. But I wanted his adventures to end two years ago. Seems to be getting dragged out a lot now.
Conversely, let's look at some of the reasons why British comics, in their heyday, worked: because they were always about CHARACTER. You saw Buster, or Dennis The Menace, or Desperate Dan, and you got it. There was no need to bring you up to speed. What's he up to this week? Let's see. And it was the same with Strontium Dog, or Robo Hunter, or Dredd. Hey this guy's a bounty hunter in a western in space, who's he after this week? Let's see. This guy's a cop in the future, who's he gonna shoot this week? Let's see. And then - check it out/ that guy he's chasing is his DAD! And bad shit's happening. Where are we going with this? Let's see.
I guess what I'm saying is this: we need more CHARACTERS in 2000ad right now, not more ongoing stories. We need more ADVENTURE, more devil - may - care, more this - week - you're - never - gonna - we - printed - this sense of sheer enjoyment, while still adhering to some deep story arcs.
I'm not finding much in the prog right now (Dredd and Grey Area, maybe Defoe), but I'll never drop the prog. There's always something just around the corner that'll blow my brain. But bring back those characters, Tharg. Not just the ones of our youth, but new ones who we recognise instantly as archetypes who are dealing with a world that'll expand as their adventures grow.
Because those adventures make our worlds grow, too.
Well said Rocka. The sense of fun may be the thing lacking. I may be brain-addled of course, but often with The Order and Scarlet Traces and others I don't know who's in jeopardy, or why. It looks nice, but I don't much care.Very often I get by on the art.
There's a lot of clever-clever writing kicking around and I think that's a shame. It might be nostalgia, but TB Grover got it about right. I don't think times change that much.
Personal preferences on this and other threads are always interesting. Kingdom and Deadworld are unassailable favourites but I almost skip them and groan when they appear. As was posed at the outset: it's probably me...
Quote from: DrRocka on 07 July, 2017, 10:56:11 PMbut you were a kid, and so, had much more time on your hands to read them all.
Maybe I'm unusual in that my adult life isn't an insane whirlwind. But reading 32 pages of comics a week doesn't strike me as a massive time commitment. I can knock that out in 15 mins while sitting on the can in the morning.
QuoteOne of my favourite ongoing stories in the prog is Kingdom, for instance. Dammit, I LOVE Gene the Hackman. But I wanted his adventures to end two years ago. Seems to be getting dragged out a lot now.
Sorry, but I gotta call fowl on this, Kingdom has been annual or nearly so since its inception. Its made yearly appearances in Early 2007, Early 2008, Late 2009, Early 2011, Late 2014, Early 2016, and Early 2017. So in 10 years its made 7 appearances. Its not getting 'dragged out' its heading toward a natural conclusion. Maybe with the next one (I hope not!) Do I wish it had appeared 10 out of 10 years? Sure. But things happen. And it certainly hasn't diminished the experience.
I used to pick up the prog every week on my way into work, until last month when I moved house and my LCBS was no longer on my route to work. I am several months behind on the prog, I tend to let a big pile build up before reading through 20+ progs in a weekend.
In the past month I have not picked up the prog. My routine has been upset and sorting out my first (owned) home has taken priority. Not reading it on a weekly basis means I don't miss it a great deal.
FOR NOW
I'm probably going to miss it once I get settled in.
I'd love to hear Commando Forces input on this matter.
Kingdom is an excellent example of how this should be done. There is undoubtedly an over-arching story for the whole series. But each book is a proper story in it's own right, with a specific situation and a conclusion. You know there'll be another book in a year or two, but in the meantime it's had a satisfactory ending.
I don't really think there are any 'book based' series that aren't a series of connected, but, for the most part, standalone stories. Scarlet Traces Cold War being a split book is actually unusual.
Brink - Skeleton Life is a complete story. Deadworld - Cursed is a complete story. Kingdom - As it was in Heaven was a complete story. The Order - Wyrm War was a complete story. Etc....Though part of larger narratives their current books have their own internal rising action and climax.
Personally most of the current output I love, yes Edginton needs to tidy up his output, but its great output!
If I get three strips that I enjoy, then its a good prog, it wavers up and down from that through the year but on the whole for me its above average.
The only thing that is missing for me, as other have pointed is another anchor character. Since Dante ended and Sin Dex has run it course they are noticeably missing from the prog. It was nearly always Dredd and " " plus three other strips, now its Dredd and sometimes " " or sometimes four other strips.
Brink and the Order are by far the best new strips in years, but as single episodes, these do not have the same weekly impact as an outstanding character like Stront or Slaine on a good day.
For me the only thing to improve 2000AD would be to have Dredd continue as, but with perhaps a little more coordination between writers, the introduction of some new stand-out characters. Where is this generation's Luke Kirby, Shakara, or Zombo? O, and no rehash of old characters, Ulysses Sweet, I'm looking at you.
Ah, Zombo is sorely missed. Trying not to ramble, I left that out.
Yet, Ulysses Sweet I adored. More please. Less of the rambling, posturing epics. I laughed out loud at every episode of our Ulysses. Adams is a real find.
Meanwhile, I remember many didn't care for it. Hm. What a predicament.
Quote from: Fungus on 08 July, 2017, 02:05:11 AM
Ah, Zombo is sorely missed. Trying not to ramble, I left that out.
Yet, Ulysses Sweet I adored. More please. Less of the rambling, posturing epics. I laughed out loud at every episode of our Ulysses. Adams is a real find.
Meanwhile, I remember many didn't care for it. Hm. What a predicament.
Oh yes, put me down for more
Ulysses Sweet too!
I can't remember the last time I openly guffawed at a comic-probably
ZomboIt sailed close to the wind at times, shades of
Big Dave, but it was never less than entertaining and, at times, down right hilarious!
Quote from: dweezil2 on 08 July, 2017, 03:48:35 AM
Quote from: Fungus on 08 July, 2017, 02:05:11 AM
Oh yes, put me down for more Ulysses Sweet too!
When the traitor general was on the cover a few weeks ago I thought it was Ulysses Sweet. My bad.
Quote from: Pete Wells on 07 July, 2017, 07:46:24 AM
But for some time now, it's felt like a case of too many cooks. The roster of Dredd writers is impressive, and each are adding their own fascinating and exciting aspects to Dredd's world. However, at times, that exactly how it feels - several strong arcs competing and not complementing each other. As a result, consistency in MegaCity One (often cited as the star of the strip) seems to suffer.
At the moment, I genuinely don't know what I should be worrying about - it's it invisible judges in the walls? (I hate this idea by the way.) Sector Zero (virtually the same awful idea.) Texas? Brit Cit? Chaos Day fallout? Enceladus fall out? The Sovs killing a load of ex-judges? Dredd seeing and riding magical black horsies? The Mechanismo Project? Sinfield? Probably a couple of other potentially city destroying problems that I've missed?
Months seem to go by without mention of a major event, then suddenly they're back it's that writer's turn, and sometimes it's hard to be emotionally invested. I realise that gone are the days when you had one very strong writer controlling the tone and direction of the character and the city, but sometimes I genuinely wonder if the rest of the freelance writers are in contact with each other, deciding on a common direction. Is this the right thing to do or would it stifle creativity?
Going back to Steve's original question, would younger me (no family, stressful job, more 'me' time, less weary) be more able to juggle so many Dredd plot threads? Was it a simpler time? We seemed to get big summer epic, a few months of fallout/resolution stories, one offs, next big summer epic...
As I said, I would hate to have Tharg's job, but I really would like to see some stability in MegaCity One, especially as we're heading for a TV series about it.
I feel a bit like this too sometimes. I get this sense that things are dotting around, in-universe subjects appear and then are not mentioned and then suddenly appear again. I can't count the number of times I've dug out the previous few progs and checked the numbers to make sure I haven't missed something or read the stories in the wrong order.
As someone relatively new to the Prog I find a little bit of continuity and/or background info at the beginning of an installment makes a huge difference to me being able to access and understand the story. For example, the beginning of this series of
'Grey Area' was superb for a newbie like me because it set up the background to the story and still got on with some story too in the first installment. I'm not really a fan of a whole week's strip being devoted to back story and scene setting - I find that boring even if I'm new to it - but a page or half a page, or even sometimes one or two narration boxes at the beginning, with some background and continuity makes the whole thing work ten times better for me. My guess is that it might also be helpful to readers generally because of the anthology format of 2000AD. The writer and artist might be working mainly on one story, but we're reading several every week, so just a tiny bit of catch-up / background / continuity info is worth it's weight in gold.
With Dredd particularly, if some mention of the last incident which happened was given - even a single line of dialogue, or some stray background TV dialogue could mention what happened last week - it would really tie things together better from my point of view and make the strip feel more like a whole. I remember reading the Oz story recently and I really loved the way the Judda story was interwoven with Chopper's escape. Each part of the story worked in a self-contained form but we, as readers, were kept aware of the other running story.
e.g. a scan of a page from my copy of OZ
(https://jofoxadventuresinart.files.wordpress.com/2017/07/dredd-oz-judda1.jpg)
Here, we've got two old style boxes at the beginning which put the story about to be told, into context. I know it's old fashioned and even a bit corny (kind of reminds me of the Adam West live action Batman voice-over when I was a kid), but it works, we know we've not missed something, we know something different is happening.
Quote from: Arkwright99 on 07 July, 2017, 05:55:27 PM
I agree with the argument (assuming it's been made above) that Tharg should be stricter with writers submitting new serials while leaving old ones unfinished. Either they should hand them over to other people to continue if they've lost interest in them or they should bloody well complete them before starting work on another part of their personal multiverse, which will also (most likely) be left unfinished/hanging when the next shift in their mental gears kicks in.
Quote from: Professor Bear on 07 July, 2017, 08:04:49 PM
I too would prefer new series start with a self-contained outing, and while I am fine with regular series that introduce new supervillains every now and then, I'm not crazy about dedicating entire stories to doing so that essentially boil the strip down to an extended trailer for the character's return. I feel that's a path that's been well-trod in the prog by now.
In fact, my only real gripe would be that I'd like to see a bit less "BOOK 2 coming soon" endings in general, or at least have endings to series that felt like actual endings, or at least tie together some plot or character arcs, or callback to the start of the story or something. Often it feels like some stories are ending because of some unforseen behind the scenes drama.
I also sympathise with Prof Bear and Arkwright99. Even in an ongoing story I think the rhythm of good story arcs, each with beginning middle and end works best. It is just so much more satisfying for a reader. I remember once reading the first book of Tad WIlliams' 'Otherland' book series. I really enjoyed the story and was totally looking forward to the next book, but then the story from book one didn't end, it just stopped, like it had been sliced in half or something. I was really angry and upset, it felt like I'd been promised the satisfaction of understanding it and getting to the end of the first part and instead had been handed a 'to be continued' notice. I've never read another Tad Williams book, mainly because I don't want that to happen again - it was SO irritating.
(Oops, got a bit 'ranty' there - sorry)
So, my two pennys are: I think it would be really really helpful to have a bit more continuity / background text for a number of the current 2000AD stories including Dredd at times and I too really dislike 'to be continued' notices!
Cheers,
Joanne
Re that Otherland point, that's why I only read a series of novels once they're all published. Then I read them in order.
Is reading a collected edition the same thing?
Quote from: The Enigmatic Dr X on 08 July, 2017, 02:11:04 PM
Re that Otherland point, that's why I only read a series of novels once they're all published. Then I read them in order.
Is reading a collected edition the same thing?
Yeah, I should have waited until the whole series was out. That would have been much better. I might have managed the truncated ending to book 1 a bit better then. I've made the same mistake with George RR Martin's 'A Song of Ice and Fire'. I started the series in 2012 a year after book 5 'A Dance of Dragons came out'. I mistakenly thought he'd finish the series before I finished catching up. I'm now beginning to wonder if he'll ever put the next book out. At the least the story arcs work well with this one though so I'm not quite as frustrated as I might be.
(My thinking on the collected edition thing is that so long as all the words are still there in the same order it's exactly the same.)
I don't want to go back to the days when every episode had a recap of what happened last week. They're just an unwelcome interruption when the story is collected in a graphic novel. We have the Nerve Centre available for that kind of thing. Or we can just remember what happened last week.
Waiting for an entire series to be out sounds like a nightmare. I gravitate toward monthly/weekly serial storytelling because want to read it NOW. Not latter. Also if everyone did that there would be no series.
Quote from: Richard on 08 July, 2017, 03:37:07 PM
I don't want to go back to the days when every episode had a recap of what happened last week. They're just an unwelcome interruption when the story is collected in a graphic novel. We have the Nerve Centre available for that kind of thing. Or we can just remember what happened last week.
The Nerve Centre thing doesn't really work though. The recap can always be removed when collected in a trade, just like the "Next Prog" caption.
Personally, I'd prefer the titles and recaps left in the collections.
I'm still loving both the prog and the meg - but I do find myself holding out for a time when MC-1 returns to it's former glory.
I'm not very eloquent, so I'm not sure if the following will make sense...I'll give it a go...
I've enjoyed the Chaos Day arc, and all the subsequent stories - and it has made for a nice change. For once, a Dredd epic had major ramifications for future stories. However, I'd really like to see the city get back to the way it was - the gleaming 'capital of the world', and all it's associated craziness. And with a more upbeat and positive feel to it. Stories in recent years have suggested that Justice Dept are struggling and that the city is in a downward spiral. Which again, it great on one level, because it offers new plot possibilities - but on another, I find it all a bit depressing (if that's the right word). I'd really like to see the city get back on it's legs, as it were.
I get that Chaos Day was a way to upend the status quo, but to my mind it just didn't follow through in the way Apocalypse War did. Other writers didn't seem to grasp the scope of what had happened. Post-CD, we've had several more apocalyptic epics, with downtrodden citizens again offed in their many thousands. But other stories make out little has effectively changed. Dredd for the first time since the post-Judgement Day era feels a bit adrift. Personally, I think hacking back the population to the extent Chaos Day did was a mistake. You now have a massive city that used to have over 400 million people in it now cut back to the size of France's. That notion of returning to the all-domineering Mega City One seems to be impossible, unless the citizens breed like rabbits.
Quote from: Dash Decent on 09 July, 2017, 12:21:01 PM
Personally, I'd prefer the titles and recaps left in the collections.
Agreed. A collection is a fat comic with episodes stitched together, as I see it. And nothing wrong with that.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 09 July, 2017, 01:21:07 PM
I get that Chaos Day was a way to upend the status quo, but to my mind it just didn't follow through in the way Apocalypse War did. Other writers didn't seem to grasp the scope of what had happened.
I think I'm right in saying other writers didn't know what was coming. I'm not sure Tharg even knew till he got the script in for the final episode. At the time, Day of Chaos badly needed an immediate Wagner follow-up story, to show how the series would work going forward. (This might have also given the other writers time to get their heads around it.)
Obviously, 2000AD wasn't going to stop publishing 'Judge Dredd'. But for me, Day of Chaos is sort of the end of the series. Judge Dredd, the man, has failed. The city has reached its lowest ebb. The logical follow-on is massive change - I'd suggest possibly even the end of the Judge system as we know it - but instead we have a kind of uneasy status-quo. I don't think the series has ever recovered.
I prefer collections not to have recaps and titles every six pages if at all possible. I'm not sure what you think they add, but each to their own. I think they're just in the way.
I think that trying to return MC1 to it's former state would be a grave mistake. Firstly, it would be totally implausible. You just can't recover from losing seven eighths of your population.
Secondly, we've already seen 35 years of what MC1 looks like when it's a massive superpower at the pinnacle of it's achievements. I'd rather see the post-Chaos vibe done properly than some half-arsed return to what we've seen before. It would be a missed opportunity to ignore Day of Chaos and pretend it never happened.
Thirdly, it's not necessary. We've seen plenty of light-hearted, daft, comedy stories since prog 1789, Get Jerry Sing! being but one recent example. To that extent, nothing's changed.
Quote from: blackmocco on 08 July, 2017, 04:46:15 PM
Quote from: Richard on 08 July, 2017, 03:37:07 PM
I don't want to go back to the days when every episode had a recap of what happened last week. They're just an unwelcome interruption when the story is collected in a graphic novel. We have the Nerve Centre available for that kind of thing. Or we can just remember what happened last week.
The Nerve Centre thing doesn't really work though. The recap can always be removed when collected in a trade, just like the "Next Prog" caption.
I've found that the nerve centre thing frequently only gives background to the strip as a whole rather than what's been happening in the story. Maybe adding to the nerve center info might help. Personally I'm not bothered where the info is put, but I would find it really helpful to have it in there.
Quote from: Greg M. on 09 July, 2017, 01:39:31 PM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 09 July, 2017, 01:21:07 PM
I get that Chaos Day was a way to upend the status quo, but to my mind it just didn't follow through in the way Apocalypse War did. Other writers didn't seem to grasp the scope of what had happened.
I think I'm right in saying other writers didn't know what was coming. I'm not sure Tharg even knew till he got the script in for the final episode. At the time, Day of Chaos badly needed an immediate Wagner follow-up story, to show how the series would work going forward. (This might have also given the other writers time to get their heads around it.)
Yeah we've had that said on record... somewhere. In fact I believe the story that followed the week after DoC was actually written prior to it and had a couple if lines of dialogue changed to try to make it work. Which it clearly didn't. I kinda put that at Tharg's feet but not knowing the why and wherefores don't know why he allowed that to happen BUT after a few weeks for me the follow up to DoC has been handled really deftly. There's been a sense in many stories of the long term ongoing 'change' but its not actually stopped people writing the Dredd stories they want to. I like that. It might be a superficial impact felt but its not stilted the story while letting those invest carry on with a sense of continuity... well that's how I've felt this thread clearly says otherwise!
Quote from: Pete Wells on 07 July, 2017, 07:46:24 AM
But for some time now, it's felt like a case of too many cooks.
Several strong arcs competing and not complementing each other. As a result, consistency in MegaCity One (often cited as the star of the strip) seems to suffer.
At the moment, I genuinely don't know what I should be worrying about - it's it invisible judges in the walls? (I hate this idea by the way.) Sector Zero (virtually the same awful idea.) Texas? Brit Cit? Chaos Day fallout? Enceladus fall out? The Sovs killing a load of ex-judges? Dredd seeing and riding magical black horsies? The Mechanismo Project? Sinfield? Probably a couple of other potentially city destroying problems that I've missed?
Months seem to go by without mention of a major event, then suddenly they're back it's that writer's turn, and sometimes it's hard to be emotionally invested.
I really would like to see some stability in MegaCity One, especially as we're heading for a TV series about it.
That's hit the nail on the head for me Pete. The lack of coherent and consistent story lines in Dredd makes the character and those around Dredd suffer. What's this week? Send him over to Texas & have some fun adventures then, forget about the big Ice storm / monster that invaded MC1 and the consequences of that.
Williams' and Trev Hairsine's short story was great, then what? More random stories with no linkage into any of the big hitters. I'm not a great fan of Carrol's take on Dredd (throw as much as possible into the pot with no back story) and Dredd's suddenly become this 'toy' that's being shared across the playground with a total loss of identity and credibility.
Maybe it was ever thus, but I'd like to see some more careful plot threads from his story writers, give all this massive, life changing story lines a rest and build some stability and continuity, or else we just get a product, which as Pete says, it become incresingly difficult to emotionally invest in...
...until Wagner comes along that is.
Quote from: Jacqusie on 11 July, 2017, 04:32:40 PM
Maybe it was ever thus, but I'd like to see some more careful plot threads from his story writers, give all this massive, life changing story lines a rest and build some stability and continuity, or else we just get a product, which as Pete says, it become incresingly difficult to emotionally invest in...
...until Wagner comes along that is.
To be honest one of the former strengths was that very few of the strips ever had major ramifications. Exceptions such as the Apocalypse War stand in contrast to the 'perp of the week' style story. A lot of the time the emotional investment came from that aspect of the strip.
If anything I think Carrol's biggest weakness is his attempt to create an X-Files esque mythology. Justice Dept is big enough and bonkers enough without some stupid conspiracy. Stuff like the Edgar Files worked more because it was the political machinations and over reaching of individual judges, perversion of the system. That was what worked best for me anyway.
Maybe the other advantage of the 6 page weekly strip is that odd 'meh' stories such as we had this week can often be drowned out by the class.
Quote from: Tjm86 on 11 July, 2017, 04:45:42 PM
Quote from: Jacqusie on 11 July, 2017, 04:32:40 PM
If anything I think Carrol's biggest weakness is his attempt to create an X-Files esque mythology. Justice Dept is big enough and bonkers enough without some stupid conspiracy.
One part of emotional investment is credibility (I know we are talking sci-fi) and investment in the characters. World building takes time and we as readers appreciate character development in the prog, seeing the rise and fall and rise of the individual Judges is what keeps me coming back.
We don't have so much of that these days, it's the continuity thing again. The stories are all seperate, there seems to be no links between writers and characters, let alone developing threads that keep one interested to the point we care about them.
One example is how the chief judge has been portrayed in that godawful way as a lame duck in Carrols story last summer. It was like reading a completely different Hershey that the tough 'not taking any crap' character we had seen through the years. In the past anyone making such a idiotic (and quite frankly baffling) decision such as she did would be for the chop. It was painful reading the Texas stories, watching the characters you knew and loved being malaigned and written out of context.
If this is how Dredd's going, I'm not sure I can read it much longer, it's pretty hard going, chewy and hard to swallow as it is, without all this secret judge malarky that I can't remember which one is division X and which is the Judges in the walls bollocks.
If it brings in more of the younger readers then fine, I too am happy to make way after 30 odd years I suppose... all in the name of progess ey...
Quote from: Jacqusie on 11 July, 2017, 09:39:25 PM
If it brings in more of the younger readers then fine, I too am happy to make way after 30 odd years I suppose... all in the name of progess ey...
It's not bringing in younger readers.
Quote from: JoFox2108 on 08 July, 2017, 02:03:23 PM
I also sympathise with Prof Bear and Arkwright99. Even in an ongoing story I think the rhythm of good story arcs, each with beginning middle and end works best. It is just so much more satisfying for a reader. I remember once reading the first book of Tad WIlliams' 'Otherland' book series. I really enjoyed the story and was totally looking forward to the next book, but then the story from book one didn't end, it just stopped, like it had been sliced in half or something. I was really angry and upset, it felt like I'd been promised the satisfaction of understanding it and getting to the end of the first part and instead had been handed a 'to be continued' notice. I've never read another Tad Williams book, mainly because I don't want that to happen again - it was SO irritating.
(Oops, got a bit 'ranty' there - sorry)
Cheers,
Joanne
I'm not familiar with the series in question - do you mean that the story is continued, just not in the first book that was published, but that it reads like one book that got chopped in half? I'm reminded of the end of the first HItchhikers Guide to the Galaxy book, which that almost literally happened to (it was more along the lines of Douglas Adams missing his deadline and the publisher telling him to bring over what he'd written so far - it ends pretty abruptly with a one paragraph set-up for the next book).
Well pals and chums, I'm just back from a few weeks of rambles overseas, and have missed out on two whole progs... from the edgy nervousness with which I anticipate a catch-up trip to the comic shop tomorrow, it appears my own thrill-addiction still has a firm grip on the whip.
Been reflecting on this thread quite a bit as I drfited my way through cheap wine and expensive museums, and as a 90's deserter myself, I obviously can sympathise with not feeling the beat of the weekly dance: but I also can't personally see the current line-up as being disappointing in any way.
I allow my own reservations about the overall direction of Dredd as a whole, as opposed to the individual stories, which have been fine), and do think a second long-residence Dante/Stront-esque strip, plus a standalone FS-slot every week, would bring a bit of the stability that multi-writer Dredd doesn't seem to contribute.
But...
Brink alone would be enough to sell me the comic, and adding in recent and current series (Deadworld, Kingdom, Grey Area, Defoe, Hope, Kingmaker, The Order, Hunted, Aquilla, Savage, Scarlet Traces etc), I think it's as strong a line-up as it has ever been. However, talk to me again when Grey Suit returns...
I'm here to echo Tordelback's sentiments above! The Prog is at least 4/5 for me at the moment, and has almost never dipped below 3/5.
I, too have felt disenchantment from time to time, but agree with others that this seems to be more of a reflection of my own health (especially the mental kind), and indeed the state of the world. Sometimes, this means the Prog feels lacklustre; at other times, the Prog becomes a shining beacon of joy in my week.
To those bemoaning current Dredd and the lack of Al Ewing, I say it's a fair point, but don't dismiss the new guys yet! That Rory McConville is one to watch for sure, and there's fresh artists such as Jake Lynch who are bringing some of that manic energy to their work that allows 2000AD to recapture its early aesthetic.
I wouldn't mind a new 'hero' focussed strip, though, especially one that could come with a proper villain in it, too! We need a new Torquemada in the Prog, and the revamped Traitor General isn't going to cut it, I fear.
Quote from: AlexF on 12 July, 2017, 12:26:01 PM
I wouldn't mind a new 'hero' focussed strip, though, especially one that could come with a proper villain in it, too! We need a new Torquemada in the Prog, and the revamped Traitor General isn't going to cut it, I fear.
Call it a protagonist - that way you cover heroes, antiheroes and anybody else who isn't the antagonist ;)
Quote from: sheridan on 12 July, 2017, 01:04:22 PM
Quote from: AlexF on 12 July, 2017, 12:26:01 PM
I wouldn't mind a new 'hero' focussed strip, though, especially one that could come with a proper villain in it, too! We need a new Torquemada in the Prog, and the revamped Traitor General isn't going to cut it, I fear.
Call it a protagonist - that way you cover heroes, antiheroes and anybody else who isn't the antagonist ;)
I always thought a 'protagonist' was someone who was really in to playing tig.
I'd say that Rob Williams has ably picked up the slack left by Ewing.
Would be great to have him back nonetheless.
I recently read some of Al Ewing's New Avengers work. I'm a big fan of everything he's done for the prog, but I have absolutely no idea what he's writing there. It would probably benefit him as much as the prog if he came back for a spell.
Ewing's Marvel work is all very interlinked. This can be a blessing and a curse - lots of great continuity and big cosmic concepts, but if you haven't been following all the titles he's written, it can be a little hard to get into.
That's a fair point, but it's just so baggy. There are whole issues which don't seem to move the plot. Tharg wouldn't stand for that.
Mind you, at 2000AD, he didn't have to try and manoeuvre the story he wanted to tell around innumerable line-wide cross-overs and soft reboots and cancellations.
Yes, I suppose so. I just came away with the impression that Ewing is a writer who has lost his way. Perhaps that is unfair given the restrictions you mention.
In response to some of the comments about different writers on Dredd, I have no idea what level of coordination there is of various storylines at editorial level. But my fear would be, if there is too much control, that we end up with a US mainstream comic type editorial panel approach, that could dictate the overall direction of Dredd and almost reduce writers to fleshing out agreed plots.
All about finding a balance of continuity and allowing writers to develop their own ideas. No doubt that is something that Tharg has pondered over for some time.
The way things are going with Marvel, Ewing might have a larger readership if he returned to 2000AD.
For me - if Dredd isn't strong I always feel a bit disappointed.
I have found the last 2 years of non-Wagner Dredd's pretty bad: there are so many plot threads going on that I really don't care for.
Added to that the fact that there are a few recurring series I really disliked (Survival Geeks, Black Schlock, most of the 3Rillers, recent Anderson, Hunted, Bad Company revival), A few recurring series I find pretty dull (Aquilla, Counterfeit Girl, Jaeger). This all means that although there is some really good stuff in the Prog at most points 2 stories I don't care about.
And yet Hunted, Jaegir, Counterfeit Girl and Bad Company have been recent highlights for me, which just goes to prove....something.
Quote from: CalHab on 13 July, 2017, 09:27:02 AM
And yet Hunted, Jaegir, Counterfeit Girl and Bad Company have been recent highlights for me, which just goes to prove....something.
I think it proves that Tharg's job is one of the most difficult editing positions there is!
For all the bemoaning of the prog thats going on in this thread, it needs to be said that Cyber-Matt (Matt SmiTharg?) is still the best Tharg we've had.
I wonder if Cyber-Matt gets any other droid's opinions on submitted scripts/commissions, or if he trusts his own judgement? Just curious.
I'm not moaning, just stating an opinion that my apathy for the vast majority of content for the last couple of years, in combination with the strongly felt absence of John Wagner, means that I will potentially, and regretfully, giving up the prog after 37 years reading.
Not the progs fault as some here have stated that they are enjoying the vast majority of it. For whatever reason, I'm really not.
Quote from: SIP on 13 July, 2017, 07:22:35 PM
I'm not moaning, just stating an opinion that my apathy for the vast majority of content for the last couple of years, in combination with the strongly felt absence of John Wagner, means that I will potentially, and regretfully, giving up the prog after 37 years reading.
Not the progs fault as some here have stated that they are enjoying the vast majority of it. For whatever reason, I'm really not.
Well John Wagner's back in The Meg next week, so happy days! :)
Delighted to hear that. I haven't really been getting into the prog of late either, and part of the reason is Dredd meandering from one writer to another without any strong threads to tie individual stories together. Fine writers, as has been said before, and fine stories, but Dredd was at his best when related events unfolded gradually over years.
I realise that this is probably impossible to avoid these days but for me personally, if Dredd meanders then so does the prog.
I miss Al Ewing on Dredd a lot too; i really felt he'd found his calling there.
Also, where is John Smith? He kept me reading almost single-handedly (no sick joke intended) through the murky days of the 90s.
Indigo Prime's back soon, isn't it?
Also, Rory McConville's getting rather prolific, isn't he? Has he managed to clone himself or something?
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 13 July, 2017, 07:49:35 PM
I haven't really been getting into the prog of late either, and part of the reason is Dredd meandering from one writer to another without any strong threads to tie individual stories together.
I realise that this is probably impossible to avoid these days but for me personally, if Dredd meanders then so does the prog.
This appears to be a reluctant theme in what some of us are saying/thinking. It must be so tempting as a writer to use MC1 and Dredd's world to the fullest, encorporating as many plot lines and characters to saturation point. Thing is, it all starts to become rather contrived, fragmented and rather difficult to link together as you say.
I'm all for using the wider Dreddverse, there are thousands of great stories to be told, but at the moment writers like Carrol are chucking as many scenarios, characters and plots as they can at Dredd and it's all reading rather uncomfortably.
The Dredd total rejuve story for one seemed so odd and out of place, it wasn't for the first time that I feel I'm following a totally different character than I've grown up with... sadly...
I really don't see it. Maybe its because my adventures with Dredd only started around the Total War epic, but current Dredd honestly doesn't feel significantly different then Dredd has been since 2004. A little less Wager on the Mega Epics, but there always have been a few different guys carving out their own little Mega City 1 niche, or isolated multi-parter/one-off. Only back then it was Rennie, now it's Carrol and Williams.
Dredd rejuve did feel unnecessarily hand wavey though. No sir, did not like it. But I'm chalking that less up to Carrol, rather that's more on Tharg.
What The Adventurer said. Look through most of Dredd's history and there have rarely been ongoing plot threads over a number of stories/months. The first time it happened was the democracy stories, which didn't start until the strip was over ten years old. But no one in their right mind would write off the first 500+ progs as not worth reading. I think the problem (as many have admitted already) is with some readers rather than with the prog. Some people feel like they have seen it all before, because they've been around for so long.
Quote from: The Adventurer on 14 July, 2017, 02:59:56 AM
Dredd rejuve did feel unnecessarily hand wavey though. No sir, did not like it. But I'm chalking that less up to Carrol, rather that's more on Tharg.
I don't have a problem with the re-juve. I don't dwell on it and it doesn't really impact on reading new Dredd episodes for me, in anyway.
I liked Carousel, it felt very Dredd in a City of The Damned crawling through fire/Dead Man blasted by fire and acid way.
Quote from: Steve Green on 14 July, 2017, 11:46:37 AM
I liked Carousel, it felt very Dredd in a City of The Damned crawling through fire/Dead Man blasted by fire and acid way.
Or indeed the exact opposite of that, wherein we learn that fire, acid and mortality itself have no consequences for Young Stony Face, as long as he keeps his doctors' appointments.
I've accepted Carousel in a 'rip off the band-aid' way, and in an internally-logical way, but I don't think I'll ever like it or how it changes the character. I'd almost have preferred an accidental use of Carroll's Snapshot gadget as a quick fix.
Well, we'd already had that in various forms.
Magicked back from the dead by Murd
Bionic Eyes after City of the Damned
Rico's CF lungs
Restored from being deep fried Dredd after Necroplis
Restored back from being a werewolf and a zombie.
Seems a bit churlish to be griping about Dr Mike's solution with those lot as a precedent.
My point about it being Dredd-like is the man 'walking off' being without his skin.
It is also worth remembering that every single cell in our body is continuously replaced over the course of our lives. We are literally not the same person we were a few years ago. Why should Dredd be any different?
It's also worth remembering that not so long ago there was a thread on this very forum calling for the issue of Dredd's ageing to be resolved somehow. MC was only giving us what we'd been clamouring for for a while.
I've found this thread really interesting.
I was very defensive in my early post proclaiming 'if you dont support the prog, dont moan when it stops etc.'
But having read quite a few intelligent comments about the splintering of Dredd plot lines/authors and the issues with some of the other stories, I do think you guys have nailed some of the issues.
Quote from: Tjm86 on 14 July, 2017, 03:05:57 PM
It is also worth remembering that every single cell in our body is continuously replaced over the course of our lives. We are literally not the same person we were a few years ago. Why should Dredd be any different?
Because... "It takes fifteen years to train a judge, fifteen years in the toughest school on earth - fifteen years of iron discipline, rigid self-control, concentrated aggression! By the time a judge hits the streets, he is no longer a man - he is a machine!"
Or, to put it more succinctly... "But Dredd is a judge - and judges are not ordinary men!". :P
Quote from: Richard on 14 July, 2017, 04:06:24 PM
It's also worth remembering that not so long ago there was a thread on this very forum calling for the issue of Dredd's ageing to be resolved somehow. MC was only giving us what we'd been clamouring for for a while.
Whereas I really didn't want the aging problem sorted at all, in fact that was one of the Dredd strips most interesting attributes. I understand why they felt the need to do it, but it was to the detriment of that great building aspect of the strip since question of judgement.
Quote from: Steve Green on 14 July, 2017, 01:50:04 PM
Well, we'd already had that in various forms.
Magicked back from the dead by Murd
Bionic Eyes after City of the Damned
Rico's CF lungs
Restored from being deep fried Dredd after Necroplis
Restored back from being a werewolf and a zombie.
Seems a bit churlish to be griping about Dr Mike's solution with those lot as a precedent.
Quote from: Richard on 14 July, 2017, 04:06:24 PM
It's also worth remembering that not so long ago there was a thread on this very forum calling for the issue of Dredd's ageing to be resolved somehow. MC was only giving us what we'd been clamouring for for a while.
No arguments there, I don't see it as unprecedented or inconsistent, and I accept it was a quick'n'easy way to address an issue that at some point had to be addressed. I also have nothing but respect for Mike's writing on Dredd, and most of my reservations are more properly directed at Tharg.
I just personally don't care for the glibness of method: since it essentially turns Dredd into Death with Carousel instead of Dead Fluidssss, clinging to life until his judgin' is done, it should have had some consequences attached. Some form of internal moral debate about a process that the ordinary citizens don't have access to, some way of framing it as a terrible sacrifice rather than a standard medical procedure, some concern about creating an immortal dictator standing in the way of the young minds like Beeny etc, some consideration for the weight that eliminating all those scars and twinges should carry.
I agree that Dredd's ageing should have been a bigger deal, with more consequences, rather than a quick fix. But I don't think that's entirely MC's fault. It's not as if Tharg or Wagner would have let him kill Dredd off.
I guess there could have been more made out of it, something like Dredd being rejuved without his knowledge during 10 in the sleep machine.
I thought it just gave him new skin. He's had that before. Unless I'm remembering wrongly, all his internal organs are as old and battle-scarred as ever.
I'm very much in the same boat as the OP - my interest has certainly dropped off a lot since the high watermark of 2012, with the Dredd movie coming out, Dante and Day of Chaos ending and Wagner subsequently stopping writing much Dredd. Tbh those were the major things that anchored me to the prog. I tend to just pick up individual issues or graphic novels digitally that pique my interest nowadays.
I also, frankly, just don't read many comics at all nowadays. Since I moved to the US 3+ years ago my lifestyle has changed so much, and my interests and hobbies with it.
Having said all of that, I'll always love 2000ad, and my interest in it has always peaked and waned over the last 22 years, so I'm sure that one day I'll be fully back on board.
Quote from: Richard on 14 July, 2017, 04:06:24 PM
It's also worth remembering that not so long ago there was a thread on this very forum calling for the issue of Dredd's ageing to be resolved somehow. MC was only giving us what we'd been clamouring for for a while.
I think I saw one or three of those threads.
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 13 July, 2017, 07:49:35 PM
Also, where is John Smith? He kept me reading almost single-handedly (no sick joke intended) through the murky days of the 90s.
I just noticed in the October 2017 solicits (progs 2051-54) that the new Indigo Prime is credited to Smith, Kek-W, and Lee Carter.
Smith's never had a co-writer before, has he? Between this and passing the reins of Devlin Waugh, I hope everything's okay with him.
This might sound stupid,but did 2000ad gotten a bit soft?Could it be time for another Summer Offensive?
Quote from: Smith on 14 July, 2017, 06:37:51 PM
Could it be time for another Summer Offensive?
NO.
Thou,at this point,an average issue of Spideman has worst things then the Summer Offensive could ever hope for. :|
Anyhow,like somebody mentioned before;we are missing a bit of the punk/counter-culture energy of yesterday.Then again,in a world where counter-culture doesnt exist...
That's no substitute for good stories, told well.
For the most part, we still have that.
Thats a bit subjective.Again,I dont care for Grey Area,Brink,Order or Brass Sun or Counterfit Girl or a lot of newer(ish) stuff.
NO.
Going to need a larger monitor.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 14 July, 2017, 07:42:26 PM
NO.
I wasnt all that serious with that suggestion.Dont take it so personaly,Jim. :)
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 14 July, 2017, 05:25:17 PM
I thought it just gave him new skin ... all his internal organs are as old and battle-scarred as ever.
Baby pink pulmonary system too, but your point stands. For me, the significance of
Carousel (Meg 375) is conceptual, rather than the specifics of how Dredd's been reupholstered.
Few type the words
'Dredd's ageing' without adding
'and his doubts about the system'. For thirty years, those interrelated issues have formed the most interesting aspects of the strip.
'Solving' one issue without resolving the other felt like a misstep; dismissing it in such a glib fashion misunderstood what a section of the readership* value most about the strip.
Regarding The Adventurer's point about Wagner's contribution to Dredd, if you strip out the anomaly of 2015's
Dark Justice (written in 2013) there's a trend:
Wagner 2000ad Dredd stories per annum
2017 - 07 (Meg 0)
2016 - 09 (Meg 0)
2015 - 23 (Meg 3)
2014 - 24 (Meg 6)
2013 - 10 (Meg 0)
2012 - 25 (Meg 0)
2011 - 23 (Meg 2)
2010 - 29 (Meg 2)
2009 - 31 (Meg 3)
2008 - 24 (Meg 8)
2007 - 30 (Meg 5)
2006 - 25 (Meg 7)
2005 - 22 (Meg 7)
2004 - 25 (Meg 9)* Okay, me. I accept most readers will be fine with it, on the basis that the technology is credible within the fictional reality of the strip and that more unlikely stuff happens to other comic characters all the time. '70 is the new 40' still worked for me, but if it had to happen I'd have preferred the Trigger's Broom approach, swapping out individual parts over decades.
Quote from: Richard on 14 July, 2017, 04:06:24 PM
It's also worth remembering that not so long ago there was a thread on this very forum calling for the issue of Dredd's ageing to be resolved somehow. MC was only giving us what we'd been clamouring for for a while.
I was clamouring for Dredd to be gunnned down in the street and replaced with Judge Beeny. Needles to say... I didn't get what I wanted. :P
Quote from: Frank on 14 July, 2017, 07:47:25 PM
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 14 July, 2017, 05:25:17 PM
I thought it just gave him new skin ...
Baby pink pulmonary system too ...
Make that
vascular system. I flunked Dr Nick Riviera's School Of Medicine And Pet Psychiatry.
Quote'They've completely restructured your entire epidermis, vascular system and muscle tissue at a cellular level'
Carousel, Meg 375
Quote from: Smith on 14 July, 2017, 07:46:46 PM
I wasnt all that serious with that suggestion.Dont take it so personaly,Jim. :)
I WASN'T.
Am I the only one that liked the Summer Offensive?* I thought it was a welcome break from the average prog of the time.
*I anticipate a big YES
Quote from: TordelBack on 14 July, 2017, 05:11:08 PM
Some form of internal moral debate about a process that the ordinary citizens don't have access to, some way of framing it as a terrible sacrifice rather than a standard medical procedure,
There was a terrible sacrifice. Old Stoney Face had to stay off the streets for more than ten minutes at a time.
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 14 July, 2017, 11:10:15 PM
Am I the only one that liked the Summer Offensive?* I thought it was a welcome break from the average prog of the time.
*I anticipate a big YES
You are correct in your anticipation.
99% of 2000ad readers* agree that Big Dave was hilarious, the blackly comedic Slaughter Bowl is one of the best things ever to run in the comic (the perfect synthesis of all those pre-prog 127 strips that should be a riot but send me to sleep), and Maniac 5 was stupid fun.
Really and Truly was unremitting pish, while Carlos Ezquerra's gorgeous painted art gracing the ersatz Inferno gave me the same feeling as when a session band cover version sneaks onto a playlist but you can't tell the difference until the vocals kick in.
* who were teenagers in 1993
I was 22 in '93 and I liked Big Dave!
No accusations of arrested development!!!! :lol:
Do you think Married With Children is still funny, viewed all these years later?
I still like Inferno and Frankenstein Division. And Helter Skelter.
Crusade's still a pile o' pish, though.
Quote from: dweezil2 on 15 July, 2017, 12:37:35 AM
Do you think Married With Children is still funny, viewed all these years later?
Married with Children was NEVER funny.
Quote from: SIP on 14 July, 2017, 05:02:18 PM
Quote from: Richard on 14 July, 2017, 04:06:24 PM
It's also worth remembering that not so long ago there was a thread on this very forum calling for the issue of Dredd's ageing to be resolved somehow. MC was only giving us what we'd been clamouring for for a while.
Whereas I really didn't want the aging problem sorted at all, in fact that was one of the Dredd strips most interesting attributes. I understand why they felt the need to do it, but it was to the detriment of that great building aspect of the strip since question of judgement.
That's another great point well put. The story 'in the Bath' was also one of those moments when Dredd reflected on his mortality and we could identify with him. The question of Judgement / Dead man story arc was so powerful because it showed Dredd as human not a machine, across some wonderful storylines with superlative writing.
Dredds complete re-juve was a shallow quick fix one shot. The soundbyte generation rejoice, no long, complicated, slow build stories here, nor any feeling of what has gone before.
The body might be new, but the soul is certainly disappearing...
Quote from: The Adventurer on 15 July, 2017, 01:04:09 AM
Quote from: dweezil2 on 15 July, 2017, 12:37:35 AM
Do you think Married With Children is still funny, viewed all these years later?
Married with Children was NEVER funny.
It was funny.Thou that was a different time,and it wouldnt fly in todays PC world.
Quote from: Smith on 15 July, 2017, 04:48:09 AM
Quote from: The Adventurer on 15 July, 2017, 01:04:09 AM
Quote from: dweezil2 on 15 July, 2017, 12:37:35 AM
Do you think Married With Children is still funny, viewed all these years later?
Married with Children was NEVER funny.
It was funny.Thou that was a different time,and it wouldnt fly in todays PC world.
Un-PC, probably why I liked it! :)
.
Big Dave wasn't anti-PC; it was taking the piss out of The Sun and its imagined readership*. It deployed the term poof** in the same way Blazing Saddles used 'nigger' or the way Pat Mills put the word Deviant in Torquemada's mouth.
Zombo was a continuation of the Summer Offensive (the Slaughter Bowl/Maniac 5 end of it, anyway), and I agree with Smith that some of the brash energy and willingness to be divisive embodied by those strips would not go amiss today.
Won't happen, though. Tharg can't afford to piss off paying customers in the way those strips clearly did.
* By 1993, The Currant Bun described a snow globe reality, where the eighties had never ended. Meanwhile, cheap flights and even cheaper drugs meant its readers spent their weekends feeling unconditional love for the deviants and outsiders News International thought the working class still feared and despised.
Murdoch was bankrupt, his eighties excess of poor investments forcing him to sell off Sky, diminishing his influence and challenging the idea that IT WAS THE SUN WOT WON IT. People think Murdoch's support propelled Blair into office, but New Labour saved Murdoch from irrelevance, teaching him that there was no direct connection between expressing open hatred of minorities and getting filthy rich.
** At the time Big Dave hit newsagents, Morrison was boasting about writing the first gay DC hero to have his own book (Sebastian O), filling Kill Your Boyfriend with bum sex, and typing up the adventures of a black girl called Boy and a Brazilian tranny, who teach a teenage version of Big Dave enlightenment.
Maniac 5 was the only story in the Summer Offensive i didn't really give a fig about (and nor did Mark Millar, judging by the fact that he forgot Tony Blair died in it and made him die again).
I liked Inferno at the time - after years of Ennis and Millar, Dredd was acting like Dredd again - but in hindsight the story was a little bit wank.
I still have a soft spot for Really and Truly; i was well on my way to becoming a techno-loving raver at the time and it encapsulated that scene very nicely. And like that scene it was shallow, lurid, silly and also great fun.
Quote from: Frank on 15 July, 2017, 11:21:43 AM
.
Big Dave wasn't anti-PC
Grant Morrison may have been suitably right-on in real life, but given the profound homophobia of much of Millar's work at the time, I suspect he used the word 'poof' primarily because he found it funny.
Quote from: Frank on 15 July, 2017, 12:07:18 AM
99% of 2000ad readers* agree that Big Dave was hilarious, the blackly comedic Slaughter Bowl is one of the best things ever to run in the comic (the perfect synthesis of all those pre-prog 127 strips that should be a riot but send me to sleep), and Maniac 5 was stupid fun.
* who were teenagers in 1993
I was a teenager in 1993 and did
not think Big Dave was hilarious, Slaughter Bowl was in any way memorable or Maniac 5 fun (agree it was stupid though).
BIG DAVE is deserving of a collection and it's also a reason to put more Steve Parkhouse into circulation.
Even better would be a Steve Parkhouse compendium of all his 2000AD work (http://www.2000ad.org/?zone=droid&page=profiles&choice=STEVEPA)
Quote from: sheridan on 15 July, 2017, 12:26:49 PM
Quote from: Frank on 15 July, 2017, 12:07:18 AM
99% of 2000ad readers* agree that Big Dave was hilarious
I ... did not think Big Dave was hilarious
One percent elite.
Big Dave was for the many, not the few.
The Summer Offensive was one of the few times I nearly quit reading the Prog. Really & Truly didn't click, although I liked the art. Inferno was dreadful, bar some reasonable art. Maniac 5 was fine in and of itself, but entirely throwaway. Only John Smith's Slaughter Bowl kept me reading (a theme throughout so much of that bleak period of 2000 AD.) As others have noted on the forum, I do hope he's OK. It's a bit odd to discover Indigo Prime is being co-written now.
As for Big Dave, I thought it was awful. Despite my young age, it came across like offensive drivel, although I assume they were going for satire. On re-reading it a few years back, that opinion hasn't changed. It just comes across as a confused, unfocussed, mean-spirited mess, and is how I imagine today's GamerGaters would attempt to pen social satire. Colin Smith's series for Sequart covers Big Dave in some depth (http://sequart.org/magazine/29967/a-few-sandwiches-short-of-a-picnic-shameless-part-29/), and broadly aligns with my views, but in a manner far better than I could outline on a forum. It's a good read regardless of your opinions of the strip.
As for the other elephant, Dredd's 'rejuve', I've just parked that as "didn't happen" in my head. It felt very US comic book, undermining the broadly grounded nature of more recent Dredd (as opposed to him managing to quickly recover from being shot through the head in the old days). To me, it was also a question that didn't really need answering, but there you go.
Quote from: Smith on 15 July, 2017, 04:48:09 AM
Quote from: The Adventurer on 15 July, 2017, 01:04:09 AM
Quote from: dweezil2 on 15 July, 2017, 12:37:35 AM
Do you think Married With Children is still funny, viewed all these years later?
Married with Children was NEVER funny.
It was funny.Thou that was a different time,and it wouldnt fly in todays PC world.
Way raunchier shows get made today. Im saying Married with Children was the Big Bang Theory of its time. A one-note joke stretched over a decade.
The 'summer offensive' was for men (and women) who should know better.
And these guys:
(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i128/mubhceeb/image_69.jpeg) (http://s71.photobucket.com/user/mubhceeb/media/image_69.jpeg.html)
Quote from: The Adventurer on 15 July, 2017, 02:35:27 PM
Quote from: Smith on 15 July, 2017, 04:48:09 AM
Quote from: The Adventurer on 15 July, 2017, 01:04:09 AM
Quote from: dweezil2 on 15 July, 2017, 12:37:35 AM
Do you think Married With Children is still funny, viewed all these years later?
Married with Children was NEVER funny.
It was funny.Thou that was a different time,and it wouldnt fly in todays PC world.
Way raunchier shows get made today. Im saying Married with Children was the Big Bang Theory of its time. A one-note joke stretched over a decade.
Probably more the
Family Guy of its time.
Kelly Cuoco is no Christina Applegate, though. Nor a Katey Sagal for that matter.
Today,tumblr would be on warpath over fat shaming and all that...
Quote from: TordelBack on 15 July, 2017, 02:41:59 PM
Kelly Cuoco is no Christina Applegate, though. Nor a Katey Sagal for that matter.
Ohh,
Christina Applegate,
Katey Sagal! Swoon! :)
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 15 July, 2017, 01:49:31 PM
Big Dave ... is how I imagine today's GamerGaters would attempt to pen social satire.
As for the other elephant, Dredd's 'rejuve', I've just parked that as "didn't happen" ... (it was) a question that didn't really need answering
I suppose Tharg can chalk it up as a limited success, since at least nobody asks how he's going to address the question of Dredd's age anymore.
Big Dave wasn't
social satire. Page 3 model single mums and closeted Tory ministers weren't the object of ridicule; the fantasy world of UK tabloids was.
I'm not making a case for the Offensive as great Art, but the strips were a welcome burst of obnoxious energy in an era largely characterised by polite mediocrity:
Strips running prior to and immediately after the Offensive:
Dredd: Judge Tyrannosaur
Kelly's Eye
Dredd: The Chieftain (interminable)
Firekind
Kano (the one where everyone's a ghost)
Dredd: The Great Brain Robbery
Rogue Trooper (Fleisher)
Dredd: War Games (set-up for Sino-Cit epic)
Ennis Stront (Gronk and Feral)
Luke Kirby 4
Dredd: Muzak Killer 2
Tyranny Rex (the one where she's a nun)
Mean Arena
The Clown
Sláine: Jealousy Of Niamh (Staples)
Robohunter (Hogan)
Armoured Gideon (not the one with Bill Savage)
Firekind was brilliant.
Quote from: Frank on 15 July, 2017, 01:17:00 PM
Quote from: sheridan on 15 July, 2017, 12:26:49 PM
Quote from: Frank on 15 July, 2017, 12:07:18 AM
99% of 2000ad readers* agree that Big Dave was hilarious
I ... did not think Big Dave was hilarious
One percent elite. Big Dave was for the many, not the few.
Just what are you accusing me of? You don't know anything about me, or where I was in 1993 (I noticed you edited out the bit where I said I was a teenager) so I don't see why you're accusing me of being part of the one percent elite, just because I didn't think the clumsy satire of Big Dave was funny.
He's joking.
Big Dave was an attempt to turn 2000AD into Viz, but it wasn't up to their standards. Nice Parkhouse art, though.
Quote from: CalHab on 16 July, 2017, 08:46:45 AM
Big Dave was an attempt to turn 2000AD into Viz...
Shifting well over a million copies at that point, can you blame them? Interesting to wonder where we would be if it had worked even a little bit. FWIW I'm ambivalent about Big Dave - I find it funnier now than I did then, but oh brother was it a bad fit for 2000AD.
Quote from: SIP on 14 July, 2017, 05:02:18 PM
Quote from: Richard on 14 July, 2017, 04:06:24 PM
It's also worth remembering that not so long ago there was a thread on this very forum calling for the issue of Dredd's ageing to be resolved somehow. MC was only giving us what we'd been clamouring for for a while.
Whereas I really didn't want the aging problem sorted at all, in fact that was one of the Dredd strips most interesting attributes. I understand why they felt the need to do it, but it was to the detriment of that great building aspect of the strip since question of judgement.
Completely agree with this. Dredd's mortality was part of what made him interesting.
Hold on. Dredd's shifting and developing outlook is what makes him interesting (caveat: Dredd isn't interesting, the megacity is?). No-one reset his brain as far as I know. You give him a paint job, you keep him on the streets longer, surely.
Quote from: Skullmo on 16 July, 2017, 10:56:39 AM
Quote from: SIP on 14 July, 2017, 05:02:18 PM
Quote from: Richard on 14 July, 2017, 04:06:24 PM
It's also worth remembering that not so long ago there was a thread on this very forum calling for the issue of Dredd's ageing to be resolved somehow. MC was only giving us what we'd been clamouring for for a while.
Whereas I really didn't want the aging problem sorted at all, in fact that was one of the Dredd strips most interesting attributes. I understand why they felt the need to do it, but it was to the detriment of that great building aspect of the strip since question of judgement.
Completely agree with this. Dredd's mortality was part of what made him interesting.
One of the positive aspects of the quick-fix is that it's easily reversible at any point: as with Face Change machines there could be a limit to many times Carousel will be effective.
Quote from: Fungus on 16 July, 2017, 11:11:47 AM
Hold on. Dredd's shifting and developing outlook is what makes him interesting (caveat: Dredd isn't interesting, the megacity is?). No-one reset his brain as far as I know. You give him a paint job, you keep him on the streets longer, surely.
And Fungus has nailed it. If you ask me (and someone might have done you never know) the aging Dredd had been done to death and was getting tired in itself and the story (and character) needed to move on from it. While Carosual hasn't done that entirelyh hopefully its parked it until there's something else to say in the matter.
Quote from: Frank on 15 July, 2017, 04:34:36 PM
Dredd: War Games (set-up for Sino-Cit epic)
Which never really happened.Which might be for the best. :-\
Quote from: TordelBack on 16 July, 2017, 11:23:27 AM
Quote from: Skullmo on 16 July, 2017, 10:56:39 AM
Quote from: SIP on 14 July, 2017, 05:02:18 PM
Whereas I really didn't want the aging problem sorted at all, in fact that was one of the Dredd strips most interesting attributes. I understand why they felt the need to do it, but it was to the detriment of that great building aspect of the strip since question of judgement.
Completely agree with this. Dredd's mortality was part of what made him interesting.
One of the positive aspects of the quick-fix is that it's easily reversible at any point: as with Face Change machines there could be a limit to many times Carousel will be effective.
Despite the cursory skin and muscle job, DREDD is being drawn as an old-fuck by every other artist; so from the visual story it seems the
Carousel process hasn't worked out too well for old Joe – a hopeless case with a bad attitude – or
Carousel wasn't part of a strict editorial directive to artists and really only a small nod to the possibility of a
full re-juve down the line when all the original fans are dead and can't complain.
Quote from: TordelBack on 16 July, 2017, 09:54:41 AM
Quote from: CalHab on 16 July, 2017, 08:46:45 AM
Big Dave was an attempt to turn 2000AD into Viz...
Shifting well over a million copies at that point, can you blame them? Interesting to wonder where we would be if it had worked even a little bit. FWIW I'm ambivalent about Big Dave - I find it funnier now than I did then, but oh brother was it a bad fit for 2000AD.
Whereas strips ripping off Tarantino and
Pushkin were what nineties
2000ad readers had been crying out for all along! *
You read that list of strips Tharg published in 1993:
Luke Kirby, The Clown, and Hogan
Robohunter have admirers, but nobody would argue they were classics or that they were pushing boundaries. The Offensive was a blip in a 5 year rut of pleasant forgettability.
Like the 1993 strips listed previously, Tharg's recent commissions feature good work by talented creators.
Brass Sun is perfectly well crafted, but nobody is ever going to pick a fight over it. No one thinks
Brink is a disgrace or that
Grey Area doesn't belong in
2000ad. **
I'm not arguing that
every story needs to challenge the liberal consensus, or feature sex crazed dinosaurs fitted with rocket launchers devouring each other as they fuck, but
someone must have an idea that doesn't recycle old stories and spout safe platitudes.
Like Vyvyan said,
it's all so bloody nice.
* Button Man, Sláine, Ichabod Azrael, Cradlegrave, Sooner Or Later, Invasion/Savage, Al's Baby, Fiends On The Eastern Front - the only thing some of Tharg's most popular strips have in common is that none of them belong in a comic aimed at eight year olds who've just watched Star Wars at the pictures while eating a Marathon bar.
** PAT MILLS: 2000AD WAS DOING THIS TO THE ESTABLISHMENT (flicks Vs to camera as a panel of Bill Savage throwing a punch zooms diagonally across the screen).
KEV O'NEILL: OH, FUCK OFF! (electric guitar howls as a dinosaur bites down on a cowboy).
READER PICKS UP RECENT ISSUE OF 2000ad: 'a goblin must team up with a wizard to save Fairyland ... Worm lady who loves a robot travels to olden days and meets Cyrano de Bergerac? A War Of The Worlds sequel about being nice to immigrants?!
To be fair, you could say the same about the Mills and O'Neill era. Newspaper features always describe 2000ad as born out of Punk and resistance to Thatcherism, so anyone taking a look at the first few issues must be baffled to find a Six Million Dollar Man rip-off, a Cockney lorry driver, and Dan Dare.
I hardly think the comic featuring one strip against the norm warrants accusations of 2000AD attempting to emulate Viz.
The Space Girls is a different story altogether.
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 16 July, 2017, 12:40:48 PM
Quote from: Fungus on 16 July, 2017, 11:11:47 AM
Hold on. Dredd's shifting and developing outlook is what makes him interesting (caveat: Dredd isn't interesting, the megacity is?). No-one reset his brain as far as I know. You give him a paint job, you keep him on the streets longer, surely.
And Fungus has nailed it. If you ask me (and someone might have done you never know) the aging Dredd had been done to death and was getting tired in itself and the story (and character) needed to move on from it. While Carosual hasn't done that entirelyh hopefully its parked it until there's something else to say in the matter.
I think Dredd is more interesting than the city - that's why all the ancilliary character solo series have been short lived except Anderson (another interesting character). When you turn Dredd into an invincible superhero who can live forever you lose some of the magic. For me anyway.
Quote from: Fungus on 16 July, 2017, 11:11:47 AM
Hold on. Dredd's shifting and developing outlook is what makes him interesting (caveat: Dredd isn't interesting, the megacity is?). No-one reset his brain as far as I know. You give him a paint job, you keep him on the streets longer, surely.
Can't agree with this one at all. Dredd is 99% my interest in the story and I've never held with the "the city and its citizens are the main character", hence my frustrations in the Dredd TV show thread calling for tales of the wacky citizens.
I like Judge Dredd himself and his completely unique real time aging and shifting views were the heart and soul of the strip for me. Take that away, and I feel you are left with the post Wagner, 1990's Dredd, which was mostly just ain horrible.
Quote from: SIP on 18 July, 2017, 06:21:26 AM
Quote from: Fungus on 16 July, 2017, 11:11:47 AM
Hold on. Dredd's shifting and developing outlook is what makes him interesting (caveat: Dredd isn't interesting, the megacity is?). No-one reset his brain as far as I know. You give him a paint job, you keep him on the streets longer, surely.
Can't agree with this one at all. Dredd is 99% my interest in the story and I've never held with the "the city and its citizens are the main character", hence my frustrations in the Dredd TV show thread calling for tales of the wacky citizens.
I like Judge Dredd himself and his completely unique real time aging and shifting views were the heart and soul of the strip for me. Take that away, and I feel you are left with the post Wagner, 1990's Dredd, which was mostly just ain horrible.
I agree that Dredd is a fantastic fascinating character. The key thing is though that Dredd feeling the years has been mined for years and as such to remove it, somewhat, from the plate allows his character development onto other things. It opens the story to dealing with other fresher aspects of that character rather than an ongoing focus on him getting old.
The physical matters dealt with in Carousel is just a practical way of moving the 'discussion' on. It on no way makes him a superhuman. He's still a man, he still has magnificent potential as a man and is still vulnerable. It simply addresses the fact that he regularly gets the tar kicked out of him but can still function in the hardest job in the world. It explains longevity does not imbue immortality.
The physical aging does define the cgaracter nor its 'removal' or in fact its delay does stop the character development.
Whether the comic is enjoyable depends on the creators, not the characters.
Quote from: SIP on 18 July, 2017, 06:21:26 AM
Quote from: Fungus on 16 July, 2017, 11:11:47 AM
Hold on. Dredd's shifting and developing outlook is what makes him interesting (caveat: Dredd isn't interesting, the megacity is?). No-one reset his brain as far as I know. You give him a paint job, you keep him on the streets longer, surely.
Can't agree with this one at all.
...shifting views were the heart and soul of the strip for me.
But that's what I said. No-one rejuved his 'views'.
Quote from: Fungus on 18 July, 2017, 08:49:16 AM
Quote from: SIP on 18 July, 2017, 06:21:26 AM
Quote from: Fungus on 16 July, 2017, 11:11:47 AM
Hold on. Dredd's shifting and developing outlook is what makes him interesting (caveat: Dredd isn't interesting, the megacity is?). No-one reset his brain as far as I know. You give him a paint job, you keep him on the streets longer, surely.
Can't agree with this one at all.
...shifting views were the heart and soul of the strip for me.
But that's what I said. No-one rejuved his 'views'.
But this is what I've been arguing, I can't find or tell you what Dredd's views or feelings are nowadays, the strip has lost that. In my eyes he really has lost the subtlety that he had developed, and that seemingly departed along with Wagner.
I don't really care if they rejuve him or not, it's not his appearance that is the problem for me, it's the character himself.
Quote from: SIP
But this is what I've been arguing, I can't find or tell you what Dredd's views or feelings are nowadays, the strip has lost that. In my eyes he really has lost the subtlety that he had developed, and that seemingly departed along with Wagner.
I'd argue that the Williams strips have spent TOO much time telling us about Dredd's feelings: I suspect the problem is that a plurality of writers means inconsistent views, rather than an absence of them.
Quote from: TordelBack on 18 July, 2017, 09:19:29 AMI'd argue that the Williams strips have spent TOO much time telling us about Dredd's feelings:
Actually I love that about Williams scripts. Maybe because I like old'n'tired Dredd and his cold fury and this is good balance to some of the Carroll scripts where sometimes Dredd is just... there, more like pawn that need to be moved from place to place cuz the story need advance rather than being integral part of it.
Williams Dredd is miles beyond what anyone other than JW has managed.. The unrelenting fury of the man while constantly facing a city turned to crap. Rob Williams and Henry Flint is pure Dredd gold. Whereas the other Dredd world that has emerged post DoC is just so unremittingly meh.
And chalk me up as a Williams Dredd fan as well.
He is responsible for some of the very best Dredd tales of late, and long may it continue. And I really appreciate the profundity he brings to Dredd. Something I didn't know I was missing, until I started reading his tales. And having Henry Flint on board, for the most part, helps as well. :-)
No-one can touch Mr Wagner, especially when he's on fire, but I get the same tingle of anticipation seeing Rob's name in the credit box, as I do John's.
Williams is really good at the big spectical, Carroll at the down to earth procedural stuff. Together they're strike a pretty good balance imo.
Williams is a fantastic writer, but I'm not sure Dredd's any better suited to the house character model than Robohunter or Rogue Trooper were.
How the character's written is less important to me than the stories writers tell. The modern Dredd adventures* I enjoy are essentially cop or cowboy action strips.
Few new writers want to write cop, cowboy or action strips. Which is fair enough - I'd rather they were allowed to develop new stories that suit their interests. Dredd's an anachronism.
I''d rather Dredd was treated like any other strip, and only appeared when its creators are available**, but I wouldn't want to deny fans of ice monsters and secret ninja armies their fun.
* As opposed to stories centred on a citizen, like PJ Maybe. Gore City (1664-1667) and the investigatory sections of Total War are probably the best examples of what I mean by cowboy and cop action stories.
** Dredd would have gone on hiatus between 1991 and 1994, dropped to 20 episodes per year from 1999 to 2012, and switched to 10-15 episodes for the last few years.
QuoteHow the character's written is less important to me than the stories writers tell. The modern Dredd adventures* I enjoy are essentially cop or cowboy action strips.
I posted something similar a while back on another thread. It's hard to really put my finger on - and maybe I'm off base here (as I say, I'm a little out of touch with recent stories), but my take is that some writers perhaps sometimes lose sight of the fact that Dredd strips tend to work best as variations on fairly simple tropes - ie 'Dredd is on the trail of a fugitive perp', 'a new craze sweeps MC1' etc.
Even when John Wagner was in the midst of a really dense, intricate mega-epic like Tour of Duty or The Pit, he'd always manage to elegantly wrap the continuity and world-building around otherwise self-contained police procedurals, and he's always had a real knack for writing propulsive episodic stories that never feel too 'plotty' or continuity-heavy. Does that make sense?
With the best Dredd stories, you can usually sum up their plot in a simple one-line synopsis, but with some of the bigger stories or plotlines by other writers that I've read in the past, I must confess I've sometimes felt a bit lost. I'm not sure I could really say what - for example - Trifecta was all about off the top of my head.
For me the strength of Dredd is the variety of stories and the versatility of the strip. You can have a story about literally anything at all. Police procedural safe great but I'd be bored if that was all there was to Dredd. The quality of the stories depends mainly on the writer, not so much the subject.
Imagine Dredd without PJ Maybe, without the Dark Judges, without Otto Sump, without Chopper. Imagine no Necropolis, no Mechanismo, no America, no comedy stories, no satire. It would never have lasted forty years.
Quote from: radiator on 18 July, 2017, 10:06:06 PM
... some writers perhaps sometimes lose sight of the fact that Dredd strips tend to work best as variations on fairly simple tropes - ie 'Dredd is on the trail of a fugitive perp', 'a new craze sweeps MC1' etc.
... With the best Dredd stories, you can usually sum up their plot in a simple one-line synopsis, but ... I'm not sure I could really say what - for example - Trifecta was all about off the top of my head.
That's fair comment.
The biggest influence on newer writers seems to be US TV, which means they're most comfortable with dense plotting and Joss Whedon dialogue.
That works
great in their own strips *, but Dredd sitting still for 2 pages of exposition and quirky interaction without shooting someone doesn't ring true.
Tellingly, the two most significant Dredd stories of recent years ** have either made the title character a passive bystander or removed him from the story for months. ***
* ... and in Dredd world strips that don't feature Dredd. Without Dredd's impatient, sceptical presence, strips like Low Life and Lawless can sustain a ton of Buffy talk and multi-season arcs. Makes me think the future of the Dredd strip might be the Taggart option.
** Titan and Every Empire Falls
*** It's difficult to imagine how a story that doesn't feature the character for ten weeks would pass the author's own 'does this HAVE to be a Dredd story' test. To be fair, Dredd was removed from the story by editorial mandate.
You might not be able to sum up Trifecta in one sentence, but surely that was the whole point. It wouldn't have worked if you could.
For me it is the best Dredd story since Tour Of Duty.
Quote from: Magnetica on 19 July, 2017, 07:38:34 AM
You might not be able to sum up Trifecta in one sentence, but surely that was the whole point. It wouldn't have worked if you could.
For me it is the best Dredd story since Tour Of Duty.
Didn't do much for me as a Dredd story, but appreciate that readers liked the "event" of it all. Haven't felt the need to reread it or buy the collection.
Quote from: SIP on 19 July, 2017, 11:06:01 AM
Quote from: Magnetica on 19 July, 2017, 07:38:34 AM
You might not be able to sum up Trifecta in one sentence, but surely that was the whole point. It wouldn't have worked if you could.
For me it is the best Dredd story since Tour Of Duty.
Didn't do much for me as a Dredd story, but appreciate that readers liked the "event" of it all. Haven't felt the need to reread it or buy the collection.
It worked really nicely as an epilogue, of sorts, to Day of Chaos - and the Dredd part of it, The Cold Deck, was one of the very few non-Wagner post-Chaos stories that fully realised the potential of the new setting. It gelt like a city on its knees, moments away from breaking point.
As well as the event of it, Bullet to King Four and the Cold Deck are just great Dredd stories, with fantastic Henry Flint art. I bought the Mega Collection Trifecta edition and it is right up there as one of the best volumes (to my taste anyway).
Trifecta was just superb, start to finish: three great strips becoming one brilliant one. I doubt there's ever been a rug-pull so complex that worked so flawlessly, and certainly not in comics.
I can't believe that was nearly five years ago already! I feel like reading it again now.
Good for everyone who loves Trifecta: the last five years of Dredd have certainly been much more like that story than the epic that preceded it*
I thought the Dirty Frank/Overdrive section was a riot, but the rest is the original secret ninja judge army story. And JUDGE SMILEY. **
I'm clearly in the minority, though. I should have posted this in the I'm sure It's Me, Not The Prog thread.
* Which, ironically, was written with the express purpose of providing a template for the stories which followed/tying the hands of other Dredd writers (delete according to your reading of John Wagner's personal psychology)
** The way Smiley was introduced was very clever; the decision to have him hiding in the walls through three previous coups, less so. Rob Williams repositioning Smiley as a villain makes much more sense.
All good points Frank, but inna final analysis, he who is tired of Big Barry Penge and Dredd kicking his way into other characters' strips is tired of thrills full-stop.
Plus one invisible ninja army is allowable. It's when they start to proliferate...
(http://#039;%20strips%20is%20tired%20of%20thrills%20full-stop.)
True, but when a great tale ends with some guy coming out of a cupboard it is a bit WTF!?
Then again I cant see what the fuss is over Carousel is. Dredd is 70+, its not the green beans and bananas keeping him in shape enough for busting heads, tech has to be keeping him on the street. The rejuve will not have done away with any doubts or changes in personality that have come in those 70 years.
Quote from: Frank on 19 July, 2017, 12:10:08 AMThe biggest influence on newer writers seems to be US TV, which means they're most comfortable with dense plotting and Joss Whedon dialogue.
Actually, when I read stories like Titan I felt more 80's kind of b-cinema feel than TV and Whedon.
Quote from: radiator on 18 July, 2017, 10:06:06 PM
I posted something similar a while back on another thread. It's hard to really put my finger on - and maybe I'm off base here (as I say, I'm a little out of touch with recent stories), but my take is that some writers perhaps sometimes lose sight of the fact that Dredd strips tend to work best as variations on fairly simple tropes - ie 'Dredd is on the trail of a fugitive perp', 'a new craze sweeps MC1' etc.
Even when John Wagner was in the midst of a really dense, intricate mega-epic like Tour of Duty or The Pit, he'd always manage to elegantly wrap the continuity and world-building around otherwise self-contained police procedurals, and he's always had a real knack for writing propulsive episodic stories that never feel too 'plotty' or continuity-heavy. Does that make sense?
It certainly makes a lot of sense to me. I can only agree. I love the simple but effective classic Dredd strip's more than anything. I do really admire the way Wagner can build more complex longer term stories in without losing that simple brlliant basic Dredd which hangs together on its own merits.
I think the problem with some (very few for me actually) more plotty continuity heavy, modern stories for me, is that they occasionally push the story outside of the Dredd I love into something else. I guess it's not an easy line to walk being creative in a way that's interesting and full of thrills and yet not losing the original simple genius of the strip.
When I first started reading Dredd (at the beginning of City of the Damned), for years I wished there was more continuity and backstory to Dredd - I wanted more stories about the Judges and how they worked rather than stories of Dredd fighting crime solo and dealing with wacky citizens.
Ironically, now that the kind of stories I wanted as a teenager have increasingly become the norm for Dredd (or at least, much more common than they were around progs 400-600), I wish Dredd would go back to dealing more with wacky citizens and fighting crime. For mine a large part of his appeal is that he's a (future) cop - dealing with regular (for MC1) crime needs to be something he returns to on a regular basis.
Random thought-I would like to see a bit more horror stories in the prog.
Having returned to the prog a couple years baclk I'm enjoying it but wish it would be more daring & more diverse. I think it relies a bit too much on nostalgia. There appears to be zero attempt at attracting new readers.
I don't see that. We've had new strips as well as old ones in the last two years. Hope For The Future, Counterfeit Girl, Brink for example.
Me neither.
The Order
The Alienist
Hope
Counterfeit Girl
Brass Sun
Brink
Helium
Kingmaker
Survival Geeks
Hardly zero, seems to be a wide spread to me.
Maybe. Counterfeit Girl is great . Maybe its me, I just find a lot of stories are of a certain type that I can read in a lot of other comics. Maybe its just that other comics are finally catching up with what 2000AD have been doing all along?
Yeah I don't get that either.
The new stories for me are very strong, some, beyond what I thought possible in as much as they are as good as the "classics".
For me the only problem is the gap between books.
Interesting to review my own reactions to those strips:
The Order - absolutely love it, surprised if anyone can point to a similar comic on the market.
The Alienist - haven't seen enough to judge, but it didn't wow me straight off.
Hope - very promising and lovely looking, if not wildly original
Counterfeit Girl - loved the art, story and particularly structure didn't do much for me
Brass Sun - stylish, engaging, enjoyed the change in direction in the last outing, which seems like a long time ago now.
Brink - just a top ,top thrill, gripping stuff: oh to be able to write like Dan Abnett.
Helium - lovely designs but just too samey, I'm afraid.
Kingmaker - deeply dubious until past the halfway point, but then fell for it completely. Aerial battles with dragons and elves with one-use wings, what can I say...
Survival Geeks - this one seems like an old staple at this point! I Iike it fine, art is spectacular.
Also newish:
Black Shuck - second series was much better, still needs to find its feet
Aquila - didn't think the most recent Spanish story worked, but the previous Rome-based stuff was great.
Absalom - instant classic from the start, again not wildly original, but Best of Breed.
Ulysses Sweet (effectively new) - very entertaining, looks great too.
So that's some veey strong material - at least 5 classics, the rest rock-solid or not quite there yet for me. And that's ignoring the spinoff stuff like Hunted, Orlok and Deadworld.
Ok, I'm going to say the unsayable, from the highly qualified position of having just returned to the GGC at the 40th anniversary.
Sorry to all who will be offended by this but here goes.......
The prog needs a new editor.(Runs for cover)
Matt has been there for 16 years and the signs are showing; the art, writing, attitude, social conscience and humour of the prog are all flat, they feel burnt out.
He's a good man, is well liked, but he needs a rest from the comic conveyor belt for a wee while just to recharge his batteries.
Nothing is too bad, but it is all a bit empty.
If I was King Tharg I'd give Garth Ennis (or some such standard of illumini) a call and offer him a chance to edit the prog for a couple of years with Matt as assistant editor.
But another thought is this......
Would the 10 year old me in 1977 have bought a comic entitled '1960AD'?
Of course not.
If we were to get a new editor I'd much rather it be someone actually active with the product, with a passion for 2000 AD like Matt Smith has had during his tenure. Someone like Rob Williams, Ian Edgington, Michael Carroll, or Dan Abnett.
That said, Matt Smith has been 'my Tharg' throughout my time with 2000 AD. I honestly couldn't imagine anyone else running the show. I trust him empathetic to keep bringing the Thrills.
Quote from: geronimo on 04 August, 2017, 01:57:02 AM
If I was King Tharg I'd give Garth Ennis (or some such standard of illumini) a call and offer him a chance to edit the prog for a couple of years with Matt as assistant editor.
But another thought is this......
Would the 10 year old me in 1977 have bought a comic entitled '1960AD'?
Geronimo makes his points in a reasonable manner, however much I disagree with them, but I doubt I'd be sticking with Garth Ennis' 3000AD for very long (and I like Ennis). I am however intrigued to know who Anagrammatic Tharg is going to have writing and drawing in his revitalised prog that Matt has, in his supposed burnt-out daze, missed.
If anyone is hoping for the comic to make its living from appealing to 10 year olds again, I think they're going to be a disappointed.
I rather think we need some new writers.I don't really hate any current one,I would just like to see something new,since lately I have this feeling Edgington is writing 90% of the prog.
A fresh and deeper pool of writers would indeed be good and is always important to a comic like 2000ad (see below for clear evidence even that opening sentence is poppycock... which doesn't bode well for the rest this does it!)
The trouble is I'm sure if the talent was out there Tharg would have snapped it up. Tharg (and Matt) seem to be slowly grooming a few new(ish) writers to achieve this, but while there's been some promising stuff I do wonder where we'd be without Edginton, Dabnett and Rennie (without taking Wagner and Mills too much for granted!). I think Robbie's Morrison and Williams and Al Ewing moving away from the Prog to other shores, John Smith's already glacial pace slowing even more, has left a bit of a gap. Its happned before and the 'new' writers are getting there (christ I'm not even going to start looking up how long the 'new' writers having been in the Prog I susepct its been a loooonnnnggggg time).
So by 'new'* writers I'm thinking Mike Carroll (still largely Dredd - would love to see him stretch his wings to something of his own), Guy Adams, Eglington, Beeby, Baillie (have we lost him already?), Moore, Reppion and I'm sure others haven't quite managed to produce a classic, established ongoing series yet. There's been strips that have returned but not truly established themselves.
The return Of Kek-W and Pete Milligan is surely helping but there is still work to be done. I'm sure it will be but in the meantime its not as if the Prog is short of great thrills, but strength in depth is always vital in an anthology (a point lost when you think about the number of writers involved in the first 'golden age!').
All that whittered around I don't think this lands at Matt Smith's feet, he's doing a stirling job. I also doubt very much there's a scenario where an estblished writer like Ennis, Williams or Dabnett will become Tharg's little helper, typically (or historically at least) it works the other way round doesn't it. You do the Tharg thing before establishing yourself as freelance and for me the thing 2000ad fans need to keep a careful eye on is Matt Smith's slowly developing writing credits. We don't want him getting ambitious on that front!
*By 'new' I think I mean the pool of writers joining in the last 5 (or 10 gulp) years who haven't yet got an ongoing semi regular series of their own, one that's lasted beyond 3 books.... now watch me be proved wrong!
Good points, Colin!
If something needs to change in the Command Module, it's adding a separate editorial chair for the Meg, but I'm guessing that title only exists at all because it's covered by Matt's salary. I can't even imagine that man's workload; truly Tharg is a cruel master.
The general absence of Smith, Ewing, Morrison and Williams is keenly felt, much as losing A. Moore, G. Morrison and Milligan was decades ago, but I don't think there's anything particularly shallow about the current talent pool: and best of all, it lacks any murk-lurking crocodile whose name on a Credit Card inspires instant despair. Perhaps rather too many of its members are occupied keeping Dredd and his spinoffs running, with Mills, Edginton, Rennie, Long and Abnett basically writing everything else. It's a particular thrill when someone new breaks out of the Future Shock/Dredd/Spinoff ghetto to give us a strip of their own (Adams' Hope, for example) but it doesn't seem to happen often enough.
On another note, the Second Coming of Kek-W has been a highlight of the prog for me the last few years, I can't get enough of his stuff, and Dan Abnett has been doing his best work for what seems like ages now: everything he writes is essentially perfect.
I too have wondered where Bailie has got to lately, he had a fantastic run of shorts, but have we had anything from him in the past year or more? And that Worley chap needs to return to the weekly.
I think Matt does a cracking job. I really can't fault the prog - it's been incredibly consistent for at least the past decade.
I think the only thing I would suggest is to get in some 'ideas men' - not necessarily great script writers but people who can come up with interesting ideas to be farmed out to other writers.
Pat Mills, Dan Abnett and Ian Edington are all great ideas people but they tend to write all of the strips themselves.
Maybe we need a new Gerry Finley-Day?
Quote from: JamesC on 04 August, 2017, 09:30:05 AM
Pat Mills, Dan Abnett and Ian Edington are all great ideas people but they tend to write all of the strips themselves.
Though he's one of the writers whose work I'm not into, it's undeniable that Edginton has brilliant ideas - for me, his talent in this area is greater than his ability to sustain my interest in a longer-term story. The first few episodes of any of his yarns are always the best part, as he introduces what is usually a very original set-up: I could easily picture him coming up with concepts for other writers to explore (and graft more distinctive lead characters onto.)
As someone who's been on both sides of this divide, I feel kind of duty bound to point out that writing and editing are very different disciplines. We quite often see 'guest editors' on magazines, but they're not actually editors – they're closer in nature to consultants (when they do the job) and people who breeze by and get a photo on the flannel panel page (when they don't).
Swapping out Matt Smith for a writer might provide an injection of ideas from a very particular, individual viewpoint, but what of the general day-to-day running of the job for the Prog, and the Megazine, and all the other stuff Matt does (including the many years of experience in, well, editing and ensuring strips actually work)? Commissioning? Budgets? Forward planning? Strategy? Editing is, frankly, often a thankless task. It's insanely hard work. It's tough. It's stressful. It's a whole lot more than just stitching together other people's completed work. And given the workload I imagine Matt has, I suspect his time is insanely stretched, as I know for certain it is with every other editor I know in niche fields.
Personally, I think Matt Smith is still doing a very good job. I suspect many people are just getting jaded with something they've been reading for a long time. There is perhaps an argument for more discipline in terms of wrapping up series when writers have several on the go, and a need for a few shorter, punchier strips (something that Grey Area has now somewhat taken up). As for writers going away, it's always been the case; one just has to hope some of them will come and visit now and again.
I don't see the name 2000AD being a problem. For me it represents the whole of the millennium (by which I mean the thousand years starting in the year 2000) and not just one year 17 years ago.
(Sits back and waits for someone to mention Disaster 1990 and Slaine).
2000AD is a recognisable brand. It makes total sense to keep the name exactly as it is. This is why we still have 'Carphone Warehouse' on the high street - the brand recognition is more important than whether or not it makes sense.
Quote from: TordelBack on 04 August, 2017, 06:47:09 AM
Quote from: geronimo on 04 August, 2017, 01:57:02 AM
If I was King Tharg I'd give Garth Ennis (or some such standard of illumini) a call and offer him a chance to edit the prog for a couple of years with Matt as assistant editor.
But another thought is this......
Would the 10 year old me in 1977 have bought a comic entitled '1960AD'?
Geronimo makes his points in a reasonable manner, however much I disagree with them, but I doubt I'd be sticking with Garth Ennis' 3000AD for very long (and I like Ennis). I am however intrigued to know who Anagrammatic Tharg is going to have writing and drawing in his revitalised prog that Matt has, in his supposed burnt-out daze, missed.
If anyone is hoping for the comic to make its living from appealing to 10 year olds again, I think they're going to be a disappointed.
& therein lies the problem. 2000AD doesn't appear to want to attract a new audience.
Quote from: JLC on 04 August, 2017, 10:35:38 AM
& therein lies the problem. 2000AD doesn't appear to want to attract a new audience.
No, sorry, that's rubbish. Rebellion's stewardship has seen the installation of a dedicated PR team, US-style mini-series of indivual strips, a serious presence at all the major cons here and in the US, actually getting a decent Dredd movie made, loads of home-grown and licensed merchandise, a vigorous reprint strategy, the Hachette deals, and the acquisition of the IPC back catalogue to expand the reprint volumes to a potentially wider audience.
What do you think they
should have been doing instead of all that?
Quote from: JamesC on 04 August, 2017, 09:30:05 AM
I think the only thing I would suggest is to get in some 'ideas men' - not necessarily great script writers but people who can come up with interesting ideas to be farmed out to other writers.
Pat Mills, Dan Abnett and Ian Edington are all great ideas people but they tend to write all of the strips themselves.
Maybe we need a new Gerry Finley-Day?
Some shared strips would be quite good - an ongoing storyline, but episodes being created by different writers/artists, and a group overseeing the continuity of the whole thing - that way we could have longer runs of a story.
So what has Matt Smith done? I mean really.
Just of the top of my head here are a things that have happened over the last 17 years or so.
First the Prog and the Meg are still here. They were predicted to die circa the start of this century and here they are still going, still available in WH Smiths.
Dredd 2012 film.
Judge Dredd Mega Collection.
Judge Dredd Mega Collection extension.
2000AD part work collection.
Forth coming Dredd TV series.
Getting John Wagner to write Dredd again.
Retaining top creators despite the pull of America ( yes we have lost some) but Wagner, Grant, Mills, Abnett, Williams, Carroll, Edgington, Flint, Carlos, Willsher, MacNeil, D'Israeli, Cullbard, Higgins, Harrison, Goddard, Richardson, Robinson, Trevallion, Marshall all contribute regularly
Introduce top new stories: Absalom, Brink, Brass Sun, Jaegir, kingmaker, Grey Area, Deadworld.
Thriving range of TPBs and hardbacks.
So replace Matt Smith? Are you kidding?
Quote from: Pyroxian on 04 August, 2017, 10:48:51 AM
Quote from: JamesC on 04 August, 2017, 09:30:05 AM
I think the only thing I would suggest is to get in some 'ideas men' - not necessarily great script writers but people who can come up with interesting ideas to be farmed out to other writers.
Pat Mills, Dan Abnett and Ian Edington are all great ideas people but they tend to write all of the strips themselves.
Maybe we need a new Gerry Finley-Day?
Some shared strips would be quite good - an ongoing storyline, but episodes being created by different writers/artists, and a group overseeing the continuity of the whole thing - that way we could have longer runs of a story.
More or less,you suggest a group editor(s)?
Quote from: Magnetica on 04 August, 2017, 10:57:14 AM
So replace Matt Smith? Are you kidding?
Yes, but what have
the Romans Rebellion
really done for us?
Quote from: Magnetica on 04 August, 2017, 10:57:14 AM
First the Prog and the Meg are still here. They were predicted to die circa the start of this century and here they are still going, still available in WH Smiths.
I don't think this can be repeated often enough. There was a point in the second half of the 90s when the question was not
"What will 2000AD be called in the year 2000?" but
"Will there be a 2000AD at all?"
Quote from: Pyroxian on 04 August, 2017, 10:48:51 AM
Quote from: JamesC on 04 August, 2017, 09:30:05 AM
I think the only thing I would suggest is to get in some 'ideas men' - not necessarily great script writers but people who can come up with interesting ideas to be farmed out to other writers.
Pat Mills, Dan Abnett and Ian Edington are all great ideas people but they tend to write all of the strips themselves.
Maybe we need a new Gerry Finley-Day?
Some shared strips would be quite good - an ongoing storyline, but episodes being created by different writers/artists, and a group overseeing the continuity of the whole thing - that way we could have longer runs of a story.
I'm not sure it would even need to be that formal. Just have some stock strips that any writer can take a crack at.
Quote from: Pyroxian on 04 August, 2017, 10:48:51 AM
Quote from: JamesC on 04 August, 2017, 09:30:05 AM
I would suggest (getting) in some 'ideas men' - not necessarily great script writers but people who can come up with interesting ideas to be farmed out to other writers.
Some shared strips would be quite good - an ongoing storyline, but episodes being created by different writers/artists, and a group overseeing the continuity of the whole thing
The only examples of editorially mandated strips I can think of are
Outlaw and (sort of)
Rogue Trooper.
Strontium Dogs and
Robohunter went down the route of being passed around like Colin Farrell. The available evidence suggests that, for Tharg, that's not the way to go.
I thought Keith Richardson was everyone's favourite to emerge from the cocoon, come the next shedding? His Megacity Book Club interview suggests he wouldn't be averse to the prospect.
No, I'm sure Garth (editorial experience: nil) would jump at the chance to take a huge drop in income to move from New York to Oxford to edit a comic he probably hasn't read regularly in decades.
Quote from: GordonR on 04 August, 2017, 11:33:31 AM
No, I'm sure Garth (editorial experience: nil) would jump at the chance to take a huge drop in income to move from New York to Oxford to edit a comic he probably hasn't read regularly in decades.
But surely the lasting gratitude of 2000AD's loyal readers would be enough...
Quote from: JLC on 04 August, 2017, 10:35:38 AM
& therein lies the problem. 2000AD doesn't appear to want to attract a new audience.
Nonsense, the PR machine, outreach publications and jump-on progs never stop trying to pull in the wider audience as well as the lapsed believer. The 10 year old audience of 1977 is a completely different thing to that of 2017, that's all there is to it. Calling it 3000AD, running a Minecraft tie-in strip and taping a waterpistol to the cover isn't going to cut it. Even if it did, neither a new of audience of adults nor kids is going to have any (positive) effect on the disaffection for content/direction expressed in some posts here.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 04 August, 2017, 10:44:34 AM
Quote from: JLC on 04 August, 2017, 10:35:38 AM
& therein lies the problem. 2000AD doesn't appear to want to attract a new audience.
No, sorry, that's rubbish. Rebellion's stewardship has seen the installation of a dedicated PR team, US-style mini-series of indivual strips, a serious presence at all the major cons here and in the US, actually getting a decent Dredd movie made, loads of home-grown and licensed merchandise, a vigorous reprint strategy, the Hachette deals, and the acquisition of the IPC back catalogue to expand the reprint volumes to a potentially wider audience.
What do you think they should have been doing instead of all that?
How about taking advice for a some online fanboy whose idea is throwing the baby out with the bathwater and whose track record at comic success is zero?
Its that, or continue building and expanding the brand under Matt's firm hand and Rebellion's confident proven business success.
Just because the new target audience isn't ten year olds pestering their parents in Asda in the already crowded 'plastic gift with coloured pages attached' battlefield, but possibly is cash rich forty something returnees, doesn't mean new audiences aren't being sought...
Quote from: TordelBack on 04 August, 2017, 11:37:26 AM
But surely the lasting gratitude of 2000AD's loyal readers would be enough...
...and all the polystyrene cups he can eat.
Quote from: TordelBack on 04 August, 2017, 11:46:17 AM
Quote from: JLC on 04 August, 2017, 10:35:38 AM
& therein lies the problem. 2000AD doesn't appear to want to attract a new audience.
Nonsense, the PR machine, outreach publications and jump-on progs never stop trying to pull in the wider audience as well as the lapsed believer. The 10 year old audience of 1977 is a completely different thing to that of 2017, that's all there is to it. Calling it 3000AD, running a Minecraft tie-in strip and taping a waterpistol to the cover isn't going to cut it. Even if it did, neither a new of audience of adults nor kids is going to have any (positive) effect on the disaffection for content/direction expressed in some posts here.
I don't recall saying they should call it 3000AD, run a Minecraft tie-in strip & tape waterpistols to the cover?!?
Quote from: JLC on 04 August, 2017, 12:09:35 PM
I don't recall saying they should call it 3000AD, run a Minecraft tie-in strip & tape waterpistols to the cover?!?
Then what do you suggest they should have been doing instead of, or as well as, the many examples that you've been given in the last few posts?
I don't think Twoothy's modern target audience should be ten year olds or lapsed readers. The target audience should be anyone, of any age or gender, who enjoys science fiction, fantasy or horror. Period.
The biggest hurdle, I think, is people's attitude towards the format ("comics"), get them to overcome that prejudice and the majority will enjoy Twoothy's stories. That guy from the Space Spinner podcast (Fox?) is a prime example of the audience we need to tempt.
I sometimes wonder if giving away or selling sample progs or collected editions in cinemas might work. I know plenty of people who love fantastical films, tv and novels but won't even consider reading comics because of the way they are perceived. If that perception can be attacked in some way, readers will come.
Quote from: TordelBack on 04 August, 2017, 09:01:13 AM
The general absence of Smith, Ewing, Morrison and Williams is keenly felt ... (p)erhaps rather too many (new writers) are occupied keeping Dredd and his spinoffs running, with Mills, Edginton, Rennie, Long and Abnett basically writing everything else
I agree that Ewing and Williams need replacing, but I'm not sure how you magic up talented new writers. Maybe we need to accept Future Shocks/3rillers as a regular fixture, so any new prospects are given the time on the page needed to find their feet and their voice.
The only problem with bringing in new blood is that it cuts into the income of the reliable talents listed above, who rely on a certain number of commissions per annum - making them more likely to diversify their revenue streams by taking on gigs
elsewhere.
Which is the problem you were trying to solve in the first place. That's
Ouroboros, that is.
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 04 August, 2017, 12:26:15 PM
I don't think Twoothy's modern target audience should be ten year olds or lapsed readers. The target audience should be anyone, of any age or gender, who enjoys science fiction, fantasy or horror. Period.
The biggest hurdle, I think, is people's attitude towards the format ("comics"), get them to overcome that prejudice and the majority will enjoy Twoothy's stories. That guy from the Space Spinner podcast (Fox?) is a prime example of the audience we need to tempt.
I sometimes wonder if giving away or selling sample progs or collected editions in cinemas might work. I know plenty of people who love fantastical films, tv and novels but won't even consider reading comics because of the way they are perceived. If that perception can be attacked in some way, readers will come.
Which is really a problem entire industry is facing...
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 04 August, 2017, 12:26:15 PMThe biggest hurdle, I think, is people's attitude towards the format ("comics")
It's still something I don't understand. To me, comics are just another format. But then the UK and USA in particular have always had this weirdly dismissive attitude towards the medium that just doesn't exist elsewhere.
In general,people don't quite get its a medium,most think its all just 4-color kiddie superhero stuff.
Quote from: Frank on 04 August, 2017, 11:30:12 AM
Quote from: Pyroxian on 04 August, 2017, 10:48:51 AM
Quote from: JamesC on 04 August, 2017, 09:30:05 AM
I would suggest (getting) in some 'ideas men' - not necessarily great script writers but people who can come up with interesting ideas to be farmed out to other writers.
Some shared strips would be quite good - an ongoing storyline, but episodes being created by different writers/artists, and a group overseeing the continuity of the whole thing
The only examples of editorially mandated strips I can think of are Outlaw and (sort of) Rogue Trooper.
Strontium Dogs and Robohunter went down the route of being passed around like Colin Farrell. The available evidence suggests that, for Tharg, that's not the way to go.
I thought Keith Richardson was everyone's favourite to emerge from the cocoon, come the next shedding? His Megacity Book Club interview suggests he wouldn't be averse to the prospect.
I'd actually love to see Strontium Dogs return. I'm convinced it can work and Dogbreath is a good example of new writers doing good things with the SD world.
I also really love the 3riller format. It's a great way to test new strips with an opportunity to put a little more meat on the bones than you get with the traditional Future Shock.
Cheers JamesC- the new dogbreath is 'almost' ready for release.
Almost...
I think the prog's greatest strength (Dredd) is also it's biggest weakness in terms of attracting new audiences, at least of the kind I see rocking up in comic shops and so forth. My anecdotal experience of new comic buyers (those who came about it independtly rather than inherited like myself) is young, more likely to be lasses and more likely to be interested in Image than Marvel or DC.
Comics like Paper Girls or Monstress or Locke & Key - not Spiderman or Superman. And 2000AD does quite a lot along those lines: Brink or Brass Sun spring to mind as having more in common with what my wife thinks of as 'Image' (not knowing the dark days of Rob Liefield) than DC or Marvel. I don't think
Anyway, I think anyone who has been reading for decades is likely to burn out.
Quote from: Theblazeuk on 04 August, 2017, 01:29:50 PM
I think the prog's greatest strength (Dredd) is also it's biggest weakness in terms of attracting new audiences, at least of the kind I see rocking up in comic shops and so forth. My anecdotal experience of new comic buyers (those who came about it independtly rather than inherited like myself) is young, more likely to be lasses and more likely to be interested in Image than Marvel or DC.
Comics like Paper Girls or Monstress or Locke & Key - not Spiderman or Superman. And 2000AD does quite a lot along those lines: Brink or Brass Sun spring to mind as having more in common with what my wife thinks of as 'Image' (not knowing the dark days of Rob Liefield) than DC or Marvel. I don't think
Anyway, I think anyone who has been reading for decades is likely to burn out.
Yes Image comics are fantastic. 90% of my favourite stuff comes from Image.
Why would someone who had been reading for decades burn out?
I have been reading since Prog 127 and am just as enthusiastic now as I was back in the day.
In the last two weeks alone I have read the first two Kingdom TPBs, the last two Progs, the Meg, Nikolai Dante Tsar Wars part 2, the Vermin Stars and Helter Skelter and I did n't think it too many, indeed I didn't... You know the rest.
Quote from: Frank on 04 August, 2017, 12:42:29 PM
Maybe we need to accept Future Shocks/3rillers as a regular fixture...
Accept?
Demand. A prog without a Future Shockalike is always one strip shy of its full potential, IMHO.
Quote from: Magnetica on 04 August, 2017, 01:40:26 PM
Why would someone who had been reading for decades burn out?
I have been reading since Prog 127 and am just as enthusiastic now as I was back in the day.
In the last two weeks alone I have read the first two Kingdom TPBs, the last two Progs, the Meg, Nikolai Dante Tsar Wars part 2, the Vermin Stars and Helter Skelter and I did n't think it too many, indeed I didn't... You know the rest.
I burned out. In the early 90s. & returning a couple years back I tend to buy then binge on a few issues rather than clamour for it every week like I used to.
Quote from: JLC on 04 August, 2017, 02:01:07 PM
I burned out. In the early 90s. & returning a couple years back I tend to buy then binge on a few issues rather than clamour for it every week like I used to.
Still waiting for you to explain why the many examples you've been given
don't represent 2000AD actively seeking new readers, or to offer some idea of what you think they
should have been doing instead of all that stuff.
Or is this another baseless assertion that you're going to refuse to defend?
Quote from: JamesC on 04 August, 2017, 01:13:49 PM
Quote from: Frank on 04 August, 2017, 11:30:12 AM
Quote from: JamesC on 04 August, 2017, 09:30:05 AM
Some shared strips would be quite good - an ongoing storyline, but episodes being created by different writers/artists, and a group overseeing the continuity of the whole thing
The only examples of editorially mandated strips I can think of are Outlaw and (sort of) Rogue Trooper.
Strontium Dogs and Robohunter went down the route of being passed around like Colin Farrell. The available evidence suggests that, for Tharg, that's not the way to go.
I'd actually love to see Strontium Dogs return.
You must feel the same way I do when the Summer Offensive is discussed, James.
I'm much more interested in reading original ideas from writers with a distinctive voice than seeing creators compromising their interests and aesthetics to fit into a straitjacket devised by someone else in another century. *
Not forcing writers onto house characters, who had the life shagged out of them decades ago, seems like one of the advantages Tharg has over other publishers.
* Or worse, twisting the original creation out of recognition, to (awkwardly) fit their interests and aesthetic
Whilst I do generally agree with what you just wrote, twisting the original concept out of all recognition providing a fresh take on a scenario can work.
The case for: Jaegir.
The case against: Hunted.
Quote from: Frank on 04 August, 2017, 02:26:55 PM
Quote from: JamesC on 04 August, 2017, 01:13:49 PM
Quote from: Frank on 04 August, 2017, 11:30:12 AM
Quote from: JamesC on 04 August, 2017, 09:30:05 AM
Some shared strips would be quite good - an ongoing storyline, but episodes being created by different writers/artists, and a group overseeing the continuity of the whole thing
The only examples of editorially mandated strips I can think of are Outlaw and (sort of) Rogue Trooper.
Strontium Dogs and Robohunter went down the route of being passed around like Colin Farrell. The available evidence suggests that, for Tharg, that's not the way to go.
I'd actually love to see Strontium Dogs return.
You must feel the same way I do when the Summer Offensive is discussed, James.
I'm much more interested in reading original ideas from writers with a distinctive voice than seeing creators compromising their interests and aesthetics to fit into a straitjacket devised by someone else in another century. *
Not forcing writers onto house characters, who had the life shagged out of them decades ago, seems like one of the advantages Tharg has over other publishers.
* Or worse, twisting the original creation out of recognition, to (awkwardly) fit their interests and aesthetic
The best chefs in the world all start off learning how to make a perfect omelette.
As much as I love the thrills by Tharg's Michelin starred writers I'd be more than happy with a perfect omelette here and there.
Quote from: Theblazeuk on 04 August, 2017, 01:29:50 PM
I think the prog's greatest strength (Dredd) is also it's biggest weakness in terms of attracting new audiences, at least of the kind I see rocking up in comic shops and so forth. My anecdotal experience of new comic buyers (those who came about it independtly rather than inherited like myself) is young, more likely to be lasses and more likely to be interested in Image than Marvel or DC.
Comics like Paper Girls or Monstress or Locke & Key - not Spiderman or Superman. And 2000AD does quite a lot along those lines: Brink or Brass Sun spring to mind as having more in common with what my wife thinks of as 'Image' (not knowing the dark days of Rob Liefield) than DC or Marvel. I don't think
Anyway, I think anyone who has been reading for decades is likely to burn out.
A lot of good examples of hipster SF I cant stand.Just saying.
James C- That's what the Thought Bubble writers comp is for: to see if any of the new writers out there have what it takes to make a tasty omelette for TMO.
For FutureQuake & Something Wicked I get to read a horrendous pile of scripts, there are plenty of folk out there who want to write- trouble is, not many of them actually can.
Quote from: JamesC on 04 August, 2017, 03:01:26 PM
Quote from: Frank on 04 August, 2017, 03:01:26 PM
Not forcing writers onto house characters, who had the life shagged out of them decades ago, seems like one of the advantages Tharg has over other publishers.
The best chefs in the world all start off learning how to make a perfect omelette.
Your metaphor is so much classier than my own.
Quote from: Smith on 04 August, 2017, 03:07:28 PM
A lot of good examples of hipster SF I cant stand.
What does this even mean? All great sci-fi is counter culture at its root. That's what made 2000 AD stand out in its classic era.
Quote from: Bolt-01 on 04 August, 2017, 03:09:08 PM
James C- That's what the Thought Bubble writers comp is for: to see if any of the new writers out there have what it takes to make a tasty omelette for TMO.
For FutureQuake & Something Wicked I get to read a horrendous pile of scripts, there are plenty of folk out there who want to write- trouble is, not many of them actually can.
I think in some cases writing a good story and being able to have consistently strong original ideas are two separate skill sets. There are writers who get by mainly on the strength of their original ideas (imho) and others who may not be the most original but can crank out quality yarns like there's no tomorrow (Chuck Dixon would be a good example. Not the most original writer but he's great at character and mood and has written some of my favourite Batman and Punisher stories. I bet he couldn't get a Future Shock printed though!)
Chuck Dixon can write some damn good sci-fi and fantasy though. He was one of my favorite writers at Crossgen at it's peak. The guy's more then Batman and Punisher, and has more then his fair-share of science fiction comics under his belt. EDIT: The guy wrote Alien Legion for goodness sake!
Quote from: The Adventurer on 04 August, 2017, 03:45:07 PM
Chuck Dixon can write some damn good sci-fi and fantasy though. He was one of my favorite writers at Crossgen at it's peak. The guy's more then Batman and Punisher, and has more then his fair-share of science fiction comics under his belt.
He did some Alien Legion which I liked (I think he did one with McMahon). I still see him as more of a character writer than an ideas man though.
Alan Grant modestly describes Wagner and Mills as creators, and himself as a developer of other people's work.
I'd point out that Anderson went into the weeds fairly quickly under his stewardship, but he seemed to do okay on Batman for a good few years.
Man, Watchmen was the Hipster comic of its day.
Quote from: The Adventurer on 04 August, 2017, 03:32:45 PM
Quote from: Smith on 04 August, 2017, 03:07:28 PM
A lot of good examples of hipster SF I cant stand.
What does this even mean? All great sci-fi is counter culture at its root. That's what made 2000 AD stand out in its classic era.
Counter-culture doesn't really exist these days.
These are just attempts at hipsterism.
Quote from: Smith on 04 August, 2017, 04:16:48 PM
Quote from: The Adventurer on 04 August, 2017, 03:32:45 PM
Quote from: Smith on 04 August, 2017, 03:07:28 PM
A lot of good examples of hipster SF I cant stand.
What does this even mean? All great sci-fi is counter culture at its root. That's what made 2000 AD stand out in its classic era.
Counter-culture doesn't really exist these days.
These are just attempts at hipsterism.
I'd like to try and understand what you mean by this. Can you give an example of what makes something "hipster" or does it just mean stuff you don't like?
Weird for the sake of weird.See almost every movie-pitch Image produced.
Quote from: Smith on 04 August, 2017, 04:16:48 PM
Counter-culture doesn't really exist these days.
These are just attempts at hipsterism.
(http://imageshack.com/a/img922/4865/JZgYQr.jpg)
Every generation has its counter culture. Today its Hipsters. Previously it was Punks. Before that Hippies, Beatniks, & Dandies. And any number of variations of people challenging the excepted norms of the times with their own spin and way of expressing themselves.
What should something be "weird for the sake of"?
Isn't the derogatory use of 'hipster' more generally applied to those who follow distinctive trends innovated by others? Aka, all of fashion or most of human culture?
Quote from: The Adventurer on 04 August, 2017, 04:50:50 PM
Quote from: Smith on 04 August, 2017, 04:16:48 PM
Counter-culture doesn't really exist these days.
These are just attempts at hipsterism.
(http://imageshack.com/a/img922/4865/JZgYQr.jpg)
Every generation has its counter culture. Today its Hipsters. Previously it was Punks. Before that Hippies, Beatniks, & Dandies. And any number of variations of people challenging the excepted norms of the times with their own spin and way of expressing themselves.
Translation:
I have no answer to that so Im just going to post an image macro in an attempt to somehow discredit you.Oh,Im so clever.Wait,wait,wait...you are comparing the tumbler whiners to Punk?Really?Really? :lol:
Quote from: TordelBack on 04 August, 2017, 04:59:14 PM
What should something be "weird for the sake of"?
Isn't the derogatory use of 'hipster' more generally applied to those who follow distinctive trends innovated by others? Aka, all of fashion or most of human culture?
Yes,what the unclear part there?Im saying that lately,need for being weird outweighs trying to tell a good story.But thats probably just me.
Quote from: Smith on 04 August, 2017, 05:00:54 PM
Yes,what the unclear part there?Im saying that lately,need for being weird outweighs trying to tell a good story.
Ah, got you now. Still don't understand how hipsters (other than Molcher) come into this, or how 'now' in SF is any different from the past (say) 30 years in this respect. Or even 50 - look at Moorcock and the new wave guys!
Is it that 'hipsters' want to be be 'weird' in a less considered way than, for example, 'punks'? Cos if so, I don't think hipsters self-identify in the way that punks, mods, rockers, goths do/did.
This ended up being harder to put in words then I imagined. :)
Its just that I feel more and more accent is put on stories like Counterfit Girl.They are trying for hip and trippy but the actual story is done dozens of times before.
And yes,there was always something like The Dead or The Clown,but now I feel the whole prog is going for that style.
There are only so many stories, Smith, some say as few as seven basic narratives (for example, the story of Gilgamesh is basically identical to any number of James Bond stories and Beowulf is virtually the same as Jaws), so the only things that can be changed are the characters and settings and, I suppose, the weirdness quotient. I guess what I'm trying to say is that you will never read a new story, only an old story told in a new way. When you recognise the story, I think, that means it hasn't been told in a unique enough fashion and not that the story form itself is old - all the stories are old. A cloak of weird is just one of the tricks writers use to dress up these ancient forms and sometimes, I agree, they can go too far - or not far enough.
Seeing the story is like seeing a boom mike in the shot, it pulls us out of the experience.
It doesn't pull you out of my story about boom mikes
(https://www.quaytickets.com/ArticleMedia/Images/clients/stockport-plaza/basil-300.jpg)
Quote from: Smith on 04 August, 2017, 05:59:15 PM
I feel more and more accent is put on stories like Counterfit Girl.They are trying for hip and trippy ... there was always something like The Dead or The Clown,but now I feel the whole prog is going for that style.
That tension characterised the nineties - should Tharg try to reflect the trends of the wider industry (then Deadline, Vertigo, Viz) or double down on the robots and gruff antiheroes in a bid to hold onto the ten year olds and adults who wished they were still ten?
Deadworld, Kingdom and
Defoe have a ratio of action to chat that would have found favour in any era, while
Brink, Hope, and
Indigo Prime allow Tharg's droids to hang with Image and Boom at the convention bar, instead of staying at home out of shame, like whoever edits
Commando.
Of greater concern are strips that occupy a dull midpoint between those extremes; not enough action for the bog paper days, not enough ideas or character to fill John Smith's slot (fnar). A lot of strips -
Brass Sun, The Alienist, and The Order*, for example - leave me feeling indifferent.
* Yes, I know The Order is packed full of incident, but none of the mad stuff that happens - or the characters it happens to - gain any purchase on my imagination. Lovely art, of course; all the stories mentioned above have lovely art.
But again, one person's great is another person's bleh. I'm skipping over Greysuit, because I just don't care any more, but some people reckon it's the best thing Mills has done in ages. Similarly, you cite Brass Sun as something that makes you feel indifferent, but I thought it was one of the best things the Prog had run in ages, and grabbed the hardback. The nature of the anthology, I suppose.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 04 August, 2017, 08:16:00 PM
I'm skipping over Greysuit, because I just don't care any more, but some people reckon it's the best thing Mills has done in ages.
I suppose, like
Savage, it doesn't suffer from the g...l...a...c...i...a...l pacing of the otherwise fantastic
Brutannia Chronicles, but Mills covered this territory more entertainingly in
Accident Man and the genre inflected passages of
Third World War.And yeah, everyone has their own screwy opinions. Tharg should mail a hard copy of this thread to management, along with a request for a pay rise.
I ended up sounding a lot more confrontational then I intended;when really...Im just not feeling it.All my fault,Im just burned out. :(
And yes,Brass Sun and Order crossed my mind earlier.
Im taking a bit of a break anyway.
For my money the Pat Mills slot (and lets face it's 90% of the year there's at least one Mills strip running) is the dud slot. Some are worse then others, but they are blur into each other these days. The latest Defoe ended with Defoe telling a kid not to trust the press as its controlled by the government, and Grey Suit starts up talking about how the truth will be suppressed by the government and only exist on the dark web.
They're all just different variantions on the same theme! I guess I just don't see the appeal any more.
Quote from: The Adventurer on 04 August, 2017, 08:52:34 PM
For my money the Pat Mills slot (and lets face it's 90% of the year there's at least one Mills strip running) is the dud slot. Some are worse then others, but they are blur into each other these days. The latest Defoe ended with Defoe telling a kid not to trust the press as its controlled by the government, and Grey Suit starts up talking about how the truth will be suppressed by the government and only exist on the dark web.
They're all just different variantions on the same theme! I guess I just don't see the appeal any more.
I generally enjoy Pat Mills present-day contributions to the Prog, so I really don't mind his being a frequent name in the credits box.
That being said, Grey Suit is utterly woeful. You can't please all the people, all the time, etc...
It's not very often that we see a thread take up five pages in a single day! Quite a debate!
I'm a bit late to this one, and IndigoPrime, Gordon Rennie and Jim Campbell have already said what I would have said if I'd got here in a timely manner. But I would add that Matt Smith has been brilliant for the prog and Rebellion should give him a raise, even if they already have him one yesterday.
I suspect that much of the cynicism that has been expressed on this thread stems from nostalgia for some past golden age when everything was better, rather than anything that's seriously wrong with the prog today. That's entirely natural and normal. But for every Slaine: The Horned God there was a Junker, and for every Firekind there was a Trash.
In an anthology there'll usually be something that a particular reader won't like. But overall 2000AD has been brilliant since 2000. Rebellion would be mad to let go the editor who has been responsible for that level of consistent success over the last 15 years without at least threatening to massacre all his family and friends if he doesn't stay.
One thing I think the prog has been lacking for a while now is strips built around simple, memorable, crazy concepts. Not every story's concept should be able to be summed up in one sentence, but 2000AD isn't firing on all cylinders when there isn't at least one strip per issue (aside from Dredd) with a strikingly out-there tag line.
Some one-line concepts for recent stories:
Immigration officers patrol an alien refugee camp on Earth.
A sceretive cult threatens the survival of a post-apocalyptic orbital diaspora, but are the dark gods they worship real?
Genetically engineered dog-soldier caught between his scheming human Masters and the insectoid Them he was created to fight.
Zombie hunter wages secret war against magic-powered ruling elite in 17th London.
Invading aliens harvest the magic from a fantasy realm, but an unlikely alliance of former foes oppose them.
An ancient Order of scientists, warriors and an armour-clad AI fight the reality-destroying Wyrms across millennia of shifting history.
A girl and her protector try to find a refuge from corruption and catastrophe as Death and his minions create Deadworld.
Some bollocks about superpowered government assasins, Public School paedophiles and sheep.
True. But I think that 'memorable, crazy concepts' can be simplified further to plain throwaway 'fun'. Ulysses Sweet and the much-missed Zombo had that in shovels. The wacky (infrequent) bonkers Dredds are more welcome than ever.
Listen to us tell our granny how to edit :) All Hail Tharg! 10 More Years!
Quote from: Fungus on 05 August, 2017, 08:06:52 AM
Listen to us tell our granny how to edit :) All Hail Tharg! 10 More Years!
:D ;)
Quote from: Frank on 04 August, 2017, 08:12:38 PM
Deadworld, Kingdom and Defoe have a ratio of action to chat that would have found favour in any era, while Brink, Hope, and Indigo Prime allow Tharg's droids to hang with Image and Boom at the convention bar, instead of staying at home out of shame, like whoever edits Commando.
I can tell you now Frank, the men who write and edit Commando do not stay at home out of shame but lead the charge to the bar at Conventions and indeed drink the half-pint craft beer hipsters from Image and Boom under the table...
Not that I would do anything like that or encourage such, irresponsible, macho behaviour :D
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 04 August, 2017, 06:16:35 PM
There are only so many stories, Smith, some say as few as seven basic narratives (for example, the story of Gilgamesh is basically identical to any number of James Bond stories and Beowulf is virtually the same as Jaws), so the only things that can be changed are the characters and settings and, I suppose, the weirdness quotient. I guess what I'm trying to say is that you will never read a new story, only an old story told in a new way. When you recognise the story, I think, that means it hasn't been told in a unique enough fashion and not that the story form itself is old - all the stories are old. A cloak of weird is just one of the tricks writers use to dress up these ancient forms and sometimes, I agree, they can go too far - or not far enough.
And there is always the same story from a different PoV...
Beowolf from the Grendel's mother's PoV becomes a Revenge story... James Bond from the redshirt's PoV was quite touching in the
Spy who shagged me, etc
Needs to get back the fun satirical bite it used to have. I don't really see that much anymore in the comic.
Quote from: JLC on 05 August, 2017, 11:07:43 AM
Needs to get back the fun satirical bite it used to have. I don't really see that much anymore in the comic.
In this weeks Prog alone there'll be Grey Area, fun and awash with satire and Grey Suit, violent fun and awash with Millire (which is just like Satire but a little bit repetative and telegraphed). That's before we get anything in Dredd which we often do (not read this weeks Prog - its a fashion thing to comment before reading / watching apparently) and I'm sure the Alienist can rattle something up as well beyond the sexual politics thing which underlines the whole thing.
Quote from: JLC on 05 August, 2017, 11:07:43 AM
I don't really see that much anymore in the comic.
Like all those efforts to attract new readers you maintain the comic isn't making, despite being presented with multiple examples that demonstrate how patently absurd the statement was?
Quote from: Frank on 18 July, 2017, 09:04:59 PMI''d rather Dredd was treated like any other strip, and only appeared when its creators are available**, but I wouldn't want to deny fans of ice monsters and secret ninja armies their fun.
** Dredd would have gone on hiatus between 1991 and 1994, dropped to 20 episodes per year from 1999 to 2012, and switched to 10-15 episodes for the last few years.
I may be biased because when I started reading the prog it was 'called' "2000AD featuring Judge Dredd", but if the staple character only appeared in one in three progs, would there be a prog after a few years?
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 05 August, 2017, 11:13:09 AM
Quote from: JLC on 05 August, 2017, 11:07:43 AM
Needs to get back the fun satirical bite it used to have. I don't really see that much anymore in the comic.
In this weeks Prog alone there'll be Grey Area, fun and awash with satire and Grey Area, violent fun and awash with Millire (which is just like Satire but a little bit repeatative and telegraphed). That's before we get anything in Dredd which we often do (not read this weeks Prog - its a fashion thing to comment before reading / watching apparently) and I'm sure the Alienist can rattle something up as well beyond the sexual politics thing which underlines the whole thing.
Maybe I'm just not finding these examples as much fun or fresh as the stuff back in the day. Would we ever see anything like The Burger Wars again?
Quote from: TordelBack on 04 August, 2017, 11:37:26 AM
Quote from: GordonR on 04 August, 2017, 11:33:31 AM
No, I'm sure Garth (editorial experience: nil) would jump at the chance to take a huge drop in income to move from New York to Oxford to edit a comic he probably hasn't read regularly in decades.
But surely the lasting gratitude of 2000AD's loyal readers would be enough...
Considering what happened to Judge Dredd when Garth was put in charge, I wouldn't hold out much hope of the prog under his editorship (anyway, I'm sure he's busy executive producing (or whatever his official title is) the Preacher TV series).
Pat Mills does come in for some flak on these pages, and yes some of his stories do replay the same tired trope i:e; Outsiders vs. invisible, ruling elite yet in a horrible way Mills protagonists rarely win overall against their ghastly adversaries. They might win the battles, but not the war and does that hard fact suggest that Mills believes there is no final victory against such elites? That's a bit horrible isn't it both in fiction and more, in reality, and I'm struck how most revolutions inevitably flounder. Trump and Brexit, seen by their exponents as revolutions against elites both continually seem to flail with some commentators believing Brexit might not happen at all and the Arab Spring petered out into various coups and civil wars. Has Mills been subtlely telling us a grim tale all along, disguised in the rebels fair cloak that despite your many efforts against injustice, in the end, amoral elites always come to dominate?
Quote from: JLC on 05 August, 2017, 11:57:32 AM
Would we ever see anything like The Burger Wars again?
If you mean will 2000AD ever print anything that risks its very existence again? Then no I'm pretty sure that wouldn't be sensible - for
any publication.
If you mean will it ever publish a fun satirical piece - well yes I am sure it will. And for me "Burger Wars" wasn't that good - there are loads more Dredd stories poking fun at the state of the world that are better than that example IMO.
Quote from: sheridan on 05 August, 2017, 11:42:48 AM
Quote from: Frank on 18 July, 2017, 09:04:59 PMI''d rather Dredd was treated like any other strip, and only appeared when its creators are available**, but I wouldn't want to deny fans of ice monsters and secret ninja armies their fun.
** Dredd would have gone on hiatus between 1991 and 1994, dropped to 20 episodes per year from 1999 to 2012, and switched to 10-15 episodes for the last few years.
I may be biased because when I started reading the prog it was 'called' "2000AD featuring Judge Dredd", but if the staple character only appeared in one in three progs, would there be a prog after a few years?
I don't know. The only experience I have of publishing and distribution is knocking out mucky versions of
Oor Wullie and
The Broons at school. Demand tailed off in the early nineties but, like Richard Burton, I blame that on market forces rather than my creative choices.
Even back when it was all Wagner & Grant, about 1/3 of each year's Dredd was ballast. I've no idea whether shelving the
Captain Stranges and
Gators, and making Dredd an only semipermanent fixture - like
Strontium Dog - would have crashed the comic.
I'm not sure I intended the above as sage advice for Tharg, just the logical extension of my preference that strips take a break until the original creators return (as is the case for almost all strips). I can see why Tharg isn't going to mess with the established formula.
Quote from: Smith on 04 August, 2017, 03:07:28 PM
A lot of good examples of hipster SF I cant stand.Just saying.
Just saying what? If they were good examples it would be obvious why they're 'hipster SF' (not a term I've ever come across before). Explain.
Quote from: sheridan on 05 August, 2017, 02:28:23 PM
Quote from: Smith on 04 August, 2017, 03:07:28 PM
A lot of good examples of hipster SF I cant stand.Just saying.
Just saying what? If they were good examples it would be obvious why they're 'hipster SF' (not a term I've ever come across before). Explain.
Yep that's a new phrase to me to. I would like to know more about it.
Quote from: JLC on 05 August, 2017, 04:32:19 PM
Quote from: sheridan on 05 August, 2017, 02:28:23 PM
Quote from: Smith on 04 August, 2017, 03:07:28 PM
A lot of good examples of hipster SF I cant stand.Just saying.
Just saying what? If they were good examples it would be obvious why they're 'hipster SF' (not a term I've ever come across before). Explain.
Yep that's a new phrase to me to. I would like to know more about it.
I've only ever experienced two forms of Science Fiction-great and shit! :D
Quote from: JLC on 05 August, 2017, 04:32:19 PM
Quote from: sheridan on 05 August, 2017, 02:28:23 PM
Quote from: Smith on 04 August, 2017, 03:07:28 PM
A lot of good examples of hipster SF I cant stand.Just saying.
Just saying what? If they were good examples it would be obvious why they're 'hipster SF' (not a term I've ever come across before). Explain.
Yep that's a new phrase to me to. I would like to know more about it.
Smith was challenged to explain himself and exchanged views with many boarders over the course of several pages.
Click on the post quoted and you can follow the whole conversation, which ended with Smith expressing regret for the manner in which he expressed himself.
Everyone hugged.
Quote from: Frank on 05 August, 2017, 05:25:16 PM
Quote from: JLC on 05 August, 2017, 04:32:19 PM
Quote from: sheridan on 05 August, 2017, 02:28:23 PM
Quote from: Smith on 04 August, 2017, 03:07:28 PM
A lot of good examples of hipster SF I cant stand.Just saying.
Just saying what? If they were good examples it would be obvious why they're 'hipster SF' (not a term I've ever come across before). Explain.
Yep that's a new phrase to me to. I would like to know more about it.
Smith was challenged to explain himself and exchanged views with many boarders over the course of several pages.
Click on the post quoted and you can follow the whole conversation, which ended with Smith expressing regret for the manner in which he expressed himself.
Everyone hugged.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTmiDyO9Ryc
[img]cdn.trendhunterstatic.com/thumbs/mustache-wars.jpeg[/img
]
(http://cdn.trendhunterstatic.com/thumbs/mustache-wars.jpeg)
Quote from: JLC on 05 August, 2017, 11:57:32 AM
Maybe I'm just not finding these examples as much fun or fresh as the stuff back in the day. Would we ever see anything like The Burger Wars again?
Considering some of the publishing problems of the time some of us didn't even see it at the time. Sacriligious as it sounds, Starlord was a better read for me than the tooth. I was 7 years old, sue me!
Quote from: Tjm86 on 05 August, 2017, 06:12:55 PM
Quote from: JLC on 05 August, 2017, 11:57:32 AM
Maybe I'm just not finding these examples as much fun or fresh as the stuff back in the day. Would we ever see anything like The Burger Wars again?
Considering some of the publishing problems of the time some of us didn't even see it at the time. Sacriligious as it sounds, Starlord was a better read for me than the tooth. I was 7 years old, sue me!
You were seduced by the glossy paper!!!! :lol:
:lol:
... more like by Strontium Dog, Robusters and Mind Wars. Planet of the Damned was always a guilty pleasure too.
Mind Wars was good. Hopefully the Treasury of British Comics will get round to introducing it to a new generation at some point.
Quote from: Richard on 05 August, 2017, 09:19:49 PM
Mind Wars was good. Hopefully the Treasury of British Comics will get round to introducing it to a new generation at some point.
True - my favourite work by Jesus Redondo, an opinion shared with the man himself (as he revealed at the 40th).
Quote from: sheridan on 05 August, 2017, 09:35:53 PM
Quote from: Richard on 05 August, 2017, 09:19:49 PM
Mind Wars was good. Hopefully the Treasury of British Comics will get round to introducing it to a new generation at some point.
True - my favourite work by Jesus Redondo, an opinion shared with the man himself (as he revealed at the 40th).
Closely followed by Nemesis Book II, and then that Future Shock by Alan Moore, you know the one...
The Time Machine?
Quote from: Richard on 06 August, 2017, 12:14:36 AM
The Time Machine?
I did realise after I wrote that, that:
a) I meant Time Twisters, not Future Shocks
b) there were at least two, both of which were excellent (first about a ex-convict killing an old woman, stealing her car and driving through a post-apocalyptic landscape, before stopping for a familiar face, second the one you mentioned, about a scientist who ruined his life trying to discover the secret of time travel)
Quote from: sheridan on 06 August, 2017, 09:57:10 PM
...first about a ex-convict killing an old woman, stealing her car and driving through a post-apocalyptic landscape, before stopping for a familiar face...
Ring Road(https://i.gr-assets.com/images/S/compressed.photo.goodreads.com/hostedimages/1393602089i/8738147._SY540_.png)
Which prog please?
Quote from: Richard on 07 August, 2017, 03:47:22 PM
Which prog please?
320, at the very start of the First Summer of Love (for me(of 2000AD)). 35 years on that story still gives me the chills. Something about the way Redondo draws those terrifying shapes looming out of the murk, and the dreadfully trusting face of the old lady... Absolutely brilliant on every level.
QuoteZombie hunter wages secret war against magic-powered ruling elite in 17th London.
I know it's just a typo but it makes me wonder if the idea of a secret history of 16 former Londons is the sort of thing Ian Edginton could build yet another multi-book saga out of.
And then tie it in to Stickleback somehow at the end.
This is a crazy thread to dip in an out of after a few days' break, the conversation tacks more than a sailing boat on the Irish Sea.*
But the consensus seems to be that the Prog is still good, it's just 'you', whoever the original 'you' was.
Strong agree!
*I have never run a sailing boat or crossed the Irish Sea, in case that's not obvious.
Quote from: AlexF on 10 August, 2017, 05:40:51 PM
This is a crazy thread to dip in an out of after a few days' break, the conversation tacks more than a sailing boat on the Irish Sea.*
Even when disagreeing wildly with the opinions, this thread has never been less than fascinating reading!
Quote from: Dark Jimbo on 10 August, 2017, 06:46:51 PM
Quote from: AlexF on 10 August, 2017, 05:40:51 PM
This is a crazy thread to dip in an out of after a few days' break, the conversation tacks more than a sailing boat on the Irish Sea.*
Even when disagreeing wildly with the opinions, this thread has never been less than fascinating reading!
Ahem to that. Another example of how even though this place can get its knickers in a twist now and again normally it's full of interesting, insightful and reflective folks.
Hugs all round.
Quote from: AlexF on 10 August, 2017, 05:40:51 PM
QuoteZombie hunter wages secret war against magic-powered ruling elite in 17th London.
I know it's just a typo but it makes me wonder if the idea of a secret history of 16 former Londons is the sort of thing Ian Edginton could build yet another multi-book saga out of.
And then tie it in to Stickleback somehow at the end.
This is a crazy thread to dip in an out of after a few days' break, the conversation tacks more than a sailing boat on the Irish Sea.*
But the consensus seems to be that the Prog is still good, it's just 'you', whoever the original 'you' was.
Strong agree!
*I have never run a sailing boat or crossed the Irish Sea, in case that's not obvious.
I'm not the instigating "you", but I am of the "you" faction........and I did suspect it was "me" all along.
...and it's goodnight from him.